The game is definitely getting bloated for some specs. They prune a couple things here and there but then, I’ll use blood dk as an example, they’re using like an additional 7-9 buttons they didn’t pick up or have during DF. I have something around 32-36 keybinds on some tanks I play. I think its reaching critical mass. The game can not sustain these huge word soup talent trees.
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Bloated? Lol. They just gutted abilities and made a lot passive.
Thats exactly where the blaot is coming from! “Keeping battle shout up is annoying so lets just have another ability activate it”
Or “hey this tier set bonus is cool. Lets make it baseline.”
Thats exactly why every ability in TWW has 3 extra secondary effects slapped on to it.
Its disengenuous to cherry pick talents when you level and pick one at a time.
Yea this was their motivation for adding so many nodes. And it was a dumb one. They wanted every level to have a talent…but leveling is so fast, and such an afterthought that it just doesnt work at all.
90% of the abilities and passives youre giving the player are useless while leveling. Like there is actually no point in doing your rotation while leveling.
And doing overworld content really doesnt teach you about your class at all in retail.
illusion of choice by picking the passives from those talent trees right?
Actually. Pairing passives and actives against each other is probably my biggest complaint with the MoP talents.
This game is 20 years old.
Mario is even older than that…those games arent confusing.
Maybe if WoW didnt hit you with 20 differe nt pop ups and talking heads and covering your map with garbage it wouldnt feel so confusing.
Yea I actually thought the first layer of D4 talents looked way better than what we have in WoW.
Not a fan of isometric rpgs. But I was very jealous that their respecing cost money and ours doesnt.
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You mean… battle shout?
No idea where you were going with this example.
Why is that bad?
How dare your abilities work together and do more than just… frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt.
Why would you want to do full rotations for leveling?
Doing that and going oom per mob in classic is miserable.
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Eh you get the idea. Shoulda picked an example from a class I actually play.
Like my brewmaster brews now randomly cast old keg explosion.
frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt.
People like to pick on classic by looking exactly at ranged dps fighting bosses in raids.
Yes…it was boring. Thats because the RAIDS were poorly designed. Not the classes.
Warlocks didnt sacrafice their pet and spam shadowbolt outside of raids. Mages actually needed to kite and crowd control out of raids.
Why would you want to do full rotations for leveling?
I agree. When I can just press 1 button and kill everything with 0 challange.
You say classic is a game where you only press 1 button…and yet when I play classic I find myself using my whole kit AND managing resources.
But in retail? I just press spinning crane kick. Why would I press any other button?
Raids were designed exactly like the classes.
Melee were no different.
Sunder sunder sunder. White hit white hit white hit. Mortal strike. White hit white hit white hit. Sunder to refresh…
Classes had no flavor. No depth. 1 to 2 button rotations.
Most bosses were patchwerk. Run thing out. Don’t stand in fire.
Why do you want leveling to be a challenge? Thats for max level.
Thats because classic is needlessly tedious*.
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Melee were no different.
Compared to ranged dps melee dps are more involved in the fight.
But youre right. Its really healers and tanks that do all the work while the dps just kind of get carried.
And thats how its always been in WoW.
Why do you want leveling to be a challenge? Thats for max level
Challenge =/= engaging. I dont want any content for babies where my hand is being held.
And also this whole “locking all the real content behind the end game” is insanity. Its also a complete farcry from the MMO genres roots. Which was NOT about the end game at all, but about the journey.
Thats because classic is needlessly tedious*.
No retail is just dumby designed.
Take drinking and eating for example.
Drinking and eating is actually a convience feature so that you dont have to sit around and wait to recharge.
But the moron devolopers at blizz decided to increase everyones HP and mana regen so that we dont have to carry drinks.
But its not like HP and mana refill instantly…its just faster. So now if your at 20% you have no food or drink and you literally have to stand there waiting while your hp and mana bar tik up.
There are so many examples like this.
Like casters used to not be able to cast when somebody was hitting them…but then they got rid of it. But uh oh, how do you stop casters now? Lets give every class an interupt.
So now players have to download an addon to track interupts…thanks blizzard. You really made the game better /s.
I hope you understand that you don’t want baby content or hand being held, but that’s exactly what you are asking for with talents right?
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Classic talent trees didnt hold the players hand or treat them like a baby.
Retail talent tree does tho…it literally has a “default” option for babies. And respecing is free so there really are no wrong choices.
So people can learn things. You learn nothing in group content while leveling because everything pushes over. Good luck performing a rotation with dungeon scaling being a huge problem where a level 11 holy priest can solo them. Lucky to press 1 or 2 buttons lol.
Respectfully disagree. The game is so homogenized right now. Everything is starting to feel the same again, like it did back in WoD. Classic and TBC was not hard, you’re right, but it did have class fantasy and flavor and it was way more immersive than any class design since Legion ended.
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Those classic style talents tree has really fallen off after 1 expansion
you need to break it down into basics.
Don’t look at the whole tree. You look at the branches. At first you don’t know what is better than the others, some are utility talents that you may only use in PvP or niche situations, but there are some that follow the core mechanics of your class.
You grab those first based on what you use often in the rotation as you DPS/Heal/Tank. Then when your understanding of the synergy works with talents you tweak it, then you’ll find 9 times out of 10 you’ll be very close to the simmed Meme builds.
I do and I don’t. Part of the reason those trees were so limited was because monitor resolutions were also. We can fit more on the screen now!
i for one think blizzard should add brand new talent trees with 100 different options for every spec that are all perfectly balanced
It really heartens me to see so many other players dissatisfied with the current state of class abilities and talents.
I didn’t start playing alts until late into Legion, and that was mostly on the back of the common sentiment on how good the class design was back then. Unfortunately, it got worse and worse in BfA and SL.
When they announced talent trees coming back in DF, I thought we were going to get major overhauls akin to Legion (and MoP apparently, but I didn’t play back then). Instead, what we got is a cluster-mish-mash of talents and abilities that are all over the place.
The main good thing about Hero Talents is that they’re not making the current system any worse.
Now, that’s not to say we should go back to Classic or MoP talents; these had their own problems, but I keep thinking that a system between Diablo 3 and Last Epoch would be good…I’ll get more into this later, but the current system is very underwhelming and could use major a revamp.
Rift had a system similar to this. Many of your abilities were gained from spending points in a talent tree, but the more points you spent in a tree the more abilities you gained from the tree’s root. I believe it was done that way to ensure that any given class had a basic set of abilities to use.
Yeah, and why do you suppose that is? 
It’s only like that because of a lack of balance. Play a class that greatly under performs in content and you’ll see why players gravitate towards the meta.
I’d argue that the D3 Rune system was pretty good; it was simple, straightforward, and much easier to balance around (even if the abilities themselves were wildly unbalanced)
The problem with it, for me at least, was that it locked you into certain types of builds because many Runes arbitrarily modified the element of the ability.
For example, I remember on my Monk I had gear that gave a ridiculous +750% Fire damage, which unfortunately funnelled me into selecting Runes that modified my abilities to Fire damage but also modified them to operate differently than what I wanted.
D4 seems to have the same problem WoW has: they tried to find a middle ground between D2 and D3 but grossly missed the mark.
But all journey’s eventually end, and there’s simply no way for the devs to pump out content at the rate players consume.
Levelling also segregates the playerbase, unless there is a scaling system like the one we have now, but at that point, why even bother with levels?
Constantly having to eat and drink in Classic is why I stopped playing Mage. I want to play the game, not spend time waiting for resources to regen, even at the accelerated rate while eating and drinking.
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and there’s simply no way for the devs to pump out content
Sure you could never put out 2 years worth of content every 2 years. But it really wouldnt be hard to make the current overworld take around 20 hours. And importantly 20 engaging hours.
And then you have the end game stuff be supplementary. Instead of the whole game.
Levelling also segregates the playerbase
So does gear. Any progression system is genna do this.
And I really dont think its a big issue when expansions only have 10 levels. (Heck some have only had 5).
If it was 60 levels I would agree.
Constantly having to eat and drink in Classic is why I stopped playing Mage
Its faster than standing there waiting for it to tik back up like I find myself always doing in retail.
It wasn’t. The WORLD was immersive, not the class designs or talents.
Classes are way more immersive now with the ability and talent variety.
Like my spriest. I can choose to spawn tentacles and such or go full into my dots.
My hero talents, I can choose archon, which leans towards a holy hybrid which enhances my halo ability. Or I can go voidweaver which transforms my mind blast and makes it hit harder and gives it void flavor.
My dk. I can choose to be a vampire hero class or spawn horseman (which you recruited during legion mind you).
Just 2 examples immersion. Classic didnt have that.
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You forgot the 3 skill trees per profression that branch out as well… And the gear crafters use, in addition to consumes and active abilites. Much more complex than you posted
Uh, again, disagree.
It was immersive. Classes needed reagents, and had to carry them. It made sense that a hunter needed arrows or bullets, or that they had to feed their pet. Or that a rogue needed vanishing powder for their theatrical escape, like any ninja would need. These things provided flavor, even if sometimes a nuisance, and they added to the games immersion. I’m not saying it should exist still, but to say they weren’t flavorful or immersive is factually wrong.
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I cant find where you say it.
But I dont think players really like classless rpgs. Which is what it seemed like youre advocating for.