I mained 2hand frost dk for 7 years

Classes Death Knight
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So you give those back, what about warlock meta and dark apotheosis? For the most part they were talking about ability pruning and how they went too far.

Like fel flame for example, there was no real reason to remove it. There was a good reason to remove sub-specs though even though I don’t like that they were removed. What you do to one sub-spec had an impact on the rest of the spec and that just isn’t good. If I play DW I don’t want 2h nerf my damage like what happened in WoD.

I don’t like the new demonology warlock all that much but at least they brought back soul fire and molten core kind of for the spec.

2h however won’t be coming back for frost when you keep trying to split the spec, it’s the entire reason it was removed in the first place and I don’t get why people don’t understand that.

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166

Because people like to complain

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Dark Apotheosis was literally a tanking glyph for the lulz. Meta for Warlocks was the icon of the class, in large part due to Kanrethad and his role as a master of Demon-summoning, but now the spec is just a Shadowflame Beastmastery.

I think everybody knows the reasoning for its removal already. It’s been gone for half a decade now. Obviously, that has no bearing on the desire to have it be brought back. You keep saying that you don’t like that these things were removed but simultaneously fiercely defend the reasoning. If laying on your back and helplessly accepting every decision that’s made is what you want to do, then do it - alone. Your responses implicate a notable frustration with these posts, which is naturally your choice, but coming in the thread just to mindlessly smack down people’s constructive comments and conversations on the subject is completely unproductive - especially after numerous supporting arguments were made for it.

As stated above on my Warrior, I spent two hours typing out several different solutions and balancing compensations for 2H and 1H co-existing. Your “solution” does not address any issue related to Frost spec. It just covers how to make two different weapon types work more similarly. I actually laid out the most notorious problem with two-handers’ mechanics in detail, covering everything that made it less mechanically attractive than 1H: Rune generation. You make the argument that the two weapons should work exactly the same, which makes zero sense. As hard as it is to tell nowadays, it is still evident that Death Knights are not casters. We are a melee class. Different weapon types granting different fighting styles is a default and it is ridiculous to omit or restrict any form of the logic. I played this class specifically for its Obliterate-focused mechanics with 2H, not to be forced to fight in the style of Dimachaerus with mint breath. Did the Lich King have ties to Spartacus I didn’t know about?

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Yes, and there is no contradiction in recognizing in knowing why it was removed, and no not everyone understands why it was removed, and also thinking that it shouldn’t of been removed.

Knowing why it was removed can lead to better solutions than trying to get back to the place that led to the removal of it. Trying to separate the specs is not the solution but the problem and that is the entire point.

Dark apotheosis might have been a glyph, but the same can be applied to it that is being applied to 2h frost, people liked it. Writing it off as a “lol glyph” is hypocritical and other people can just say “2h frost was just a lol sub-spec”. If you want to open that can of worms go ahead and you won’t have an argument to go forward.

They are just weapons. Should axes work differently than swords? Maces? Polearms? If a mage uses a staff should a main hand and offhand work differently? Initially they were the same playstyle and therent any major issues.

The playstyle now sucks and really the only thing I might keep from it is remorseless winter. The 2 don’t have to be different, and they don’t have to be the same playstyle that we are seeing now. You just hate DW. I don’t hate 2h or people wanting to use it, I just don’t like that people are trying to bring back the same issues that got it the axe in the first place, or they know nothing of lore thinking frost was named after frostmourne when it had nothing to do with frost, or people saying dk DW doesn’t belong in lore when Marwyn one of the first death knights created by Arthas dual wielded and Falric, another one of the first used a shield.

You are just trying to find something to discredit what I say when you can’t just because of your hated towards DW. Get over it. It’s getting old at this point and I bet blizzard ignores anything that has to do with 2h.

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My original statement was made before you even chimed into this post, which implies that you are one of those that love dual-wielding and don’t like other people ragging on it. You keep bringing up Frostmourne, too. I not once mentioned Frostmourne in any of the posts that I made about 2H. My argument isn’t about cosmetics. It is about mechanics I enjoyed and saw no reason to be removed from the game. Also, stop projecting your own behaviors onto me. You accused me several times of being a DW-hater. My posts clearly state several points of reasoning for the weapon-type to be re-added. I gave several mechanical change proposals that clearly went right over your head, which made it obvious as to why you only want one way to do everything. Unfortunately, as I stated in another post, the player majority clearly consists of people that would rather press “1, 2, 3” over and over, with one way to use the class, as opposed to having to actually read their ability descriptions in order to play the class with any remote effectiveness. I mean, the only mechanic I have to worry about with Frost now is Rime procs by hitting Obliterate.

You are obviously frustrated by these posts as I said before. If you are that violated by the existence of posts that are usually constructive until people like you infect them with your negativity, then report them. The report button is there so you do not have to try and silence these posts by arguing with the people in them. You can flag them. Clearly, though, not as many people are crying about this post as you had probably hoped, so it is still here, as are many others of its kind. And I don’t care if Blizzard reads anything or not. That was made abundantly clear when their subscription feedback was removed before. I am not going to remain silent on something I have a problem with just because certain people are not listening or do not care. I have a voice and a brain and I use both. I actually understand what makes a class good or bad because I observe the mechanics in detail, which is why I find the current Frost spec to be straight garbage. I will keep making the argument for that. Get over it.

By the way, you are sitting at 346 item level with your best dungeon achievements being Heroics from last August. Your best PvP achievement is World Wide Winner. Judging by your profile, I would deduce from your battleground history that you did a lot of Alterac Valley back in the day, and literally nothing else. I run Mythic Dungeons, Raids, the occasional skirmish arena, and battlegrounds. If you had done any form of PvE at a steady pace this xpac, then you would know that Frost is easily and massively out-DPS’d because of its complete lack of high-damaging ability and non-fluid playstyle. I play it every day, with every build, in every aspect of the game. I know what I’m talking about.

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Talk about getting triggered… wow. A lot of my points were about mechanics and that is the main reason why 2h was removed. And no, I do like dual wield. Its the reason why I started playing frost back in Wrath and I also liked the playstyle the most then out of the 3 specs even though I would solo dungeons with unholy due to the extra healing for the extra disease that you had.

And I havent played since December 8th on retail and was only checking out Classic for the month which was also very disappointing. I did do a lot of Alterac Valley a long long time ago. But the horde would always lose and would blacklist it, the same with Isle of Conquest and it wasnt worth the wait time just for those 2 battlegrounds.

You are assuming so much and not listening where I have said, in multiple threads, that frost playstyle has been horrible for at least BFA and Legion. That playstyle however isnt the fault of weapon choice but poor base design. Its very easy to see that if you just read some of the abilities.

You clearly havent been reading my posts. The only one that is getting all huffy and puffy is you. You clearly dont understand why 2h was removed in the first place if you are trying to make mechanical changes to bring back 2h. It was those mechanical differences that made it get the axe along with every other sub spec.

I also dont like the “1,2,3” type of playstyle and its why I think classic sucks and Blizzard has even recognized that they went too far with pruning. And no, I dont “just want one way” to do everything, its the only way to get 2h back however since 2 separate specs based on weapon slots is dead and the time where the 2 specs werent an issue really, and 2h people could play 2h even if at an overall damage loss, the playstyle was exactly the same. For both you could ignore blood plague if you wanted but again, at a dps loss for either weapon slot.

But its pretty easy to see if Frost Dk’s are being out dps’ed… raid logs. Looks like the Frost dk, in terms of DPS the Frost Dk is 5th overall in the Eternal Palace. So it does have damage, but lets see what build is being played and it looks like its still the BoS build which is about damage windows and keeping the window open for as long as possible. It might be different in PvP though.

I quit however for a multitude of reasons, class design, the fiasco that was Blizzcon of 2018 and their complete lack of dialog with the playerbase and not understanding what they want. This was happening back in WoD and when this entire 2h obliterate stuff actually started.

The question is… do you really know what you are talking about? If you want me to look over your stuff, which I dont really think that is much of anything to go off of, you have only done some mid mythic dungeons and normal Eternal Palace.

Also, you have done Alterac Valley the most as well and most of those Alterac Valley wins of mine were from a long time ago back in Wrath and that is what my friends wanted to play. I stopped pvping a few expansions ago. I mean my last pvp achievement that is showing up is from 2016 so I dont even know why you would take that into account.

The thing that I get from you however is that you dont want to give up any ground, you want what you want and if you dont get it then you just keep complaining. The spec needs fixing first and then 2h could be added in later with a few small tweaks so that people can actually play with the weapons they want. It really is that simple and adding on this difference in playstyle based on your weapon set just isnt going to happen unless you find a 100% foolproof way where a change to 2h doesnt impact DW and DW doesnt impact 2h. Though like I said they have tried it since cata when the changes were starting and it didnt work.

I dont know why you think that having the same playstyle is a bad thing. Like you think I would actually want to keep the playstyle now even though I have been picking at it since Legion when they changed Killing Machine. Again, have you read the tooltip for that ability? That alone should tell you all you need to know about Blizzard and what they are able to handle design wise. Its an ability that contradicts itself, build crit to get a chance at a guaranteed crit.

I really dont know why its so hard for people to understand. Keep it simple and you might just get what you want.

171

It sucks when a spec is deleted and replaced with a subpar version of it.

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Well that isn’t the case here, the sub par spec was deleted.

173

You’re always lying.

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174

Lol wow are you trying to play the elitism card when you only have done normal EP? like wat? And you “play it every day, with every build, in every aspect of the game” and my DK who I keep as my main alt has better parses than you?

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175

No I’m playing the “I play the class and understand the class and how to maneuver its supposed ‘imbalance’ problems” card. And…

Was that supposed to be your idea of an insult?

… and was that? You mind switching to your DK? Since you’re obviously superior to me, so much so that you posted on a Druid-a meta class, with not one Mythic raid done and 881 IO score which is lower than mine by the way-could you please take the reigns of this discussion and provide detailed observations and explanations for the mechanics of Dual-Wielding vs Two-Handed Frost, and the problems and unbalanced aspects of both, as well as potential fixes for them? I am going to assume you only got triggered by the statement I made in response to your half-ended post in the other thread where you contributed zero intelligence to the conversation with your off-the-cuff remark that you did not read mine. Please! Educate me.

If not, then your presence in thread is worthless and you’re better off spamming Regrowth in the Druid forums or something. You are not going to win this argument.

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He won’t cause he’s fibbin’.

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177

What? Are you that daft? You insulted someone else’s experience and progression and you haven’t done anything past normal lmao. I can already tell you’re getting upset because you got called out.

I mean, I don’t care to play the raider.io games, I was just calling you out for trying to be an elitist when you don’t have anything that would give you credence for being so egotistical. And no I don’t have a mythic raid done because I pug EP… and can still full clear heroic. I also sparingly do M+ to help people cap.

There’s no discussion to be had, because only dw frost exists. 2h frost has been gone for 2 expansions and isn’t coming back, so another swing and miss at trying to make a point.

It’s clear you’re upset about being put in your place trying to call out people for their time spent in game and trying to be a complete jerkwad about it, and now you’re scrambling to defend yourself after the fact.

You have weird builds for someone who knows what they’re talking about (italics emphasized).

Is that some weird pve/pvp build you have on your armory?

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I never insulted someone else’s experience. I denied its existence entirely, and substantiated the claim with solid evidence. There is a big difference between not having done something on a slightly higher difficulty and never having participated in that aspect of the game at all. You would know this if you had any remote clue how to engage in a debate, or in my case, a back-and-forth with several people that clearly have not the slightest iota of a clue what they are talking about. Very common, but no less obnoxious.

You’re in a discussion forum. Do you confess to being a troll? The Zandalari Restoration Druid concept is already suspect enough. You wouldn’t happen to say “howdy” every time you join a group would you?

Don’t deflect now. Get your DK out and show everyone your credentials and knowledge. I think we would all like to learn something today.

If you played Death Knight then you would understand the core of my current build and how it also works with my Azerite Armor Traits. It’s a common sense build that is actually intended for single-target scenarios, like Raiding, so how could you not have known that if you are so well-versed in Frost Death Knight functionality? I mean really, do I spell it out on a chalkboard for you?

You then played the Elitist card by saying:

So now you get called out on credentials. Just like you don’t care about Raider IO, I don’t care about Raiding. I have Raided though several times on this toon- and done Heroics on others- on the same bosses for weapon drops, so I know how my spec functions in single target PvE instances. I know how my spec functions in AoE PvE. I know how my spec functions in AoE PvP and single-target PvP. I understand and have experienced all combative aspects of the game with my specialization, and have done so for years. Try again.

More evidence that you have no reason to be in this thread and that you’re just here to troll. I expected this response though. Considering you’re just some typical Tichondrius trouble-maker, as most of them are in my experience, it doesn’t surprise me that you instantly deflected when called upon to provide subject matter for the discussion at hand, which is specifically about 2H Frost. If you aren’t going to participate, then you’re just dead weight in this thread. And you have made it abundantly clear that you don’t have any intellectual material to add to it anyway.

As I said, you are not going to win this argument. I substantiate my claims. I know what I’m talking about.

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No, you randomly brought up the dude’s item level and progression with absolutely zero reason to do so other than try and bolster a weak argument. Then you got upset when someone else pointed out your own. I mean I’m sitting here looking at the post where you brought up the other dude’s item level and progression lol.

You’re right. This is a discussion forum. However, this is no thread discussing on how to improve the class. This is thread #108259709 about 2h frost, which have been created since time immemorial. This thread adds nothing but the same talking points that people have been bringing up for years.

There is no common sense build lol. You’re playing without Breath and CH, and you are running avalanche which why i have no idea. Frozen Pulse is better. There is zero scenario where Icecap or Icy Talons is going to beat Breath and CH in a pure single target scenario. If you want to play the angle of you don’t care about min/maxing your toon you’re free to do so, but claiming you have supreme knowledge of DK and know what you’re talking about is hilarious because you have some mish-mash of azerite traits and sub-par talents for single target.

You claim you know all of this but are using sub par talents for PvE. Not to mention if it’s any kind of sustained cleave you would have Frostscythe. And your pvp talents lol.

Lol what subject matter is there to substantiate? 2H frost is dead. From Blizzard’s own body of work it doesn’t look like it is ever coming back.

Everything else is just the same back and forth that’s been going for 4 years in these threads.

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And then explained why, several times. But again, it doesn’t surprise me that the concept completely went over your head. You’re obviously here to troll people that were having an otherwise productive discussion about the things that they want, at least until the other two miscreants made their way in.

That is where the conversation went anyway, and your chime-ins are completely irrelevant.

I know how BoS and CH function for DPS. I hate BoS so I don’t use it. My IO is still higher than yours all the same, and I am still #1 DK DPS on Horde all the same. Now, it would be better if I could see your DK though. I’m still waiting for you to swap to your DK. You keep dodging the request.

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You didn’t explain jack… lmao. You randomly called out this dude’s ilvl trying to prove your superiority because you have ‘x’ item level and experience. And you’re green parsing normal EP. If you can’t compete in PvE as frost it’s 100% a player issue.

Your discussions to improve the class don’t go beyond “Bring 2h frost back” that’s been apparent in at least 3 threads.

And that’s why you’re green parsing in EP.

You have 200 higher io than my alt who i just started playing like 3 weeks ago mid-season and your main is only 300 higher than my druid who does m+ for fun so you aren’t impressing anyone with your io score bub.

For your realm. I could go roll on a dead server and get rank 1 druid for freaking M+ but why do that?

You keep trying to gaslight and mislead with your statements.

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You do the same circular arguing and dodging that the other guy did. This is clearly not going to go anywhere as you still haven’t provided one shred of subject matter in regards to the topics being discussed, and when probed for information that you apparently have in abundance, you just deflect and filibuster and go back to the same talking points that rendered your presence here worthless in the first place. You’re essentially taking a position of incredulity which negates and possibility of a productive discussion. As I may or may not have said before, you are just some typical Tichondrius troll that is only here to cause problems, and have no intellect to provide to the discussion.

EDIT:

Yeah, nice try. Go do it and we’ll talk.

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Lol I called you out for trying to be an elitist douche, you got butthurt then tried to defend your ‘experience’ and then I told you your talents were wrong for PvE specifically raiding and you couldn’t even defend yourself except the predicted “I don’t like it so I don’t use it”. You don’t get to sit on your high horse talking down to people when you literally can’t even spec properly.

We’ve been over this before. Your only subject matter to improve the class is “2h frost should come back”. That doesn’t improve the class at all… It only complicates balancing issues which is WHY it was removed in the first place. You’re just trying to project and gaslight because you got called out for being a bully.

All you were doing when I first posted in this thread was arguing with someone and insulting their ilvl/progression lol.

You know how I know you’re projecting? I can look at literally every rebuttal you make to what I say and it basically boils down to “no u”.

Most people who are rank 1s on their realms can manage better than green parses with smatterings of purples. How you think being rank 1 on a dead realm gives you any inkling of arguing room is beyond me.

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See you keep talking about parsing but you’re still sitting on your Druid. You keep dodging my callouts for you to go on your DK profile. I’m still waiting brov. Show us all your Death Knight!

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