I’m the opposite, I played arms warrior since 7.1 and fell in love with it. I haven’t done much with it in BFA as it was changed a bunch and did not really like it much anymore how ever. In legion in played incredibly close to how 2 hand frost played for years and I liked it. How ever at the moment my BFA main is my pi-rate rogue.
I’ve tried arms during several xpacs (Cata through WoD) but could never get into it. After WoD I figured arms was simply not for me. I would’ve been curious to try Legion arms now that you’ve mentioned that it did remind you of 2h frost playstyle-wise, but that’s unfortunately not an option right now.
Sometimes I wish I could enjoy arms or ret so that I can get the plate dps 2h sword aesthetic without a pet (a single 2h). I’ll go prot when I want to tank, but most of the time I’ve been sticking with fury. With BfA fury, at least I don’t mind the rotation and can still use 2h weapons. I still greatly miss 2h frost though, esp. the way it was in MoP/WoD.
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I have tried warrior off an on over the years and always hated it until legion when it became my main so, I can understand the feeling. My 1st every toon was a warrior actually, I started just before BC came out and never made it to max lvl until wrath on a DK I made because I hated the warrior so much.
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And that is how I feel since they took away Blood DPS
Blizzard just keeps ruining the DK class each year.
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Blizzard please listen to US!
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Um, no. Dual-wielding was easier, not better. 2H was stronger than DW. I PvP’d with it. I PvE’d with it. It is really like Arms warrior vs Fury Warrior, before Fury became a Restoration spec that is. You just needed to use your brain with the talents to mechanically compensate for the constant Rune loss. What I did was roll Conversion and Runic Empowerment so my heal talent used ongoing Runic Power, on top of Frost Strike, to aid in triggering Runic Empowerment so I constantly had Runes regenerating to allow more Obliterate usage.
DW was getting Runic Power to dump into Frost Strike and spamming Death Siphon with the Death Runes I created. Now see, I’m not trashing Dual-Wielding. I am giving the mechanical reasons the developers were just wrong about removing the 2H spec. It was very playable but they clearly felt like the playstyle was inherently inferior to Dual-Wielding because of the mechanics, yet there was not even an attempt to solve the problem. They just figured they would delete it forever and avoid putting in work to change the playstyle or add abilities to properly supplement it. It was just a plain lazy move and I am still very angry about it. It took me all of 5 minutes to come up with at least a baker’s dozen of solutions for the 2H mechanical hardship, which is literally Rune upkeep. I mean come on.
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They did try, they tried in Cata, MoP and WoD and each time DW was better. You are also limiting your play to one small portion of the overall play style like everyone else. Wrath they didn’t try to separate them, they played the same and just through the kit DW pulled ahead.
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At this point I cannot even remember the changes made to the 2H playstyle over the years. I just know that the devs were unwilling to make any systematic changes and instead just kept moving numbers around and putting band-aids on the mechanics to hopefully give the spec a push. When that didn’t work, they instead opted to just remove the spec entirely, as opposed to coming up with a way to change the playstyle to allow players to keep 2H’s.
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Why do they need to change the playstyle? Even when the playstyle was exactly the same 2h underperformed compared to DW. They would have to find a way to fix the differences in how the 2 work without having an impact on one or the other and with them being the same spec it’s best to focus on one.
No, they wouldn’t have to try and find ways to “fix the differences”. They could just change the way using a 2H functions altogether, instead of taking away a means by which a player prefers to play mechanically and aesthetically. If that means adding new abilities or changing/swapping talents to create new builds to supplement the playstyle, then that is what needs to be done. Removing a system because it had balance problems that weren’t fixed by flipping numbers and slapping hotfixes is an excuse made out of pure laziness and a lack of creativity. I also do not understand why anybody would argue that an entire weapon system should be removed from a class. If you don’t like 2H Frost, then you can DW. Don’t tell me why I should be okay with something being removed that provided entertainment for me, though.
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They did change them, but what you are asking for is a 4th spec since that is the only way to resolve the overall issue.
What playstyle do you want? The way it was back in WoD when it became popular and you wanted your KM procs to be on obliterate? That’s how DW played back in the beginning but you didn’t have to worry about if you used KM on obliterate or frost strike. In fact there was something entirely different that you had to worry about but they wanted to make KM procs meaningful and not just a passive.
What you had to do was convert blood runes, keep up your diseases, not overcap on runic power though it didn’t matter much. You only talk about runic empowerment and stuff that started in Cata where DW was better as well, it’s just that it was harder to find 1h str weapons. 2h weapons were all over the place. And there weren’t many classes that could use 1h str dps weapons other than Dk frost and single minded fury, not enough of a pull to put many in the game but even still most frost dk’s that were pushing anything went DW.
Masterfrost came along and the WoD screw up that was 2h frost.
They tried to differentiate the 2 specs over at least 3 expansions. What would of happened in Legion with artifact weapons at that point which people are leaving out. With 2 different playstyles which one do you pick? The one that did the best numbers and how the majority played, or 2h because “I want to be Arthas”?
There should be the option, but even those that support 2h don’t know what they want and try to change history. If you want both to exist they have to function identically and the fallen crusader and razorice runeforges need to be combined. Then all that is different is the crit mechanics of DW and killing machine proc amount and the less crit you have that window gets smaller and smaller due to how KM was changed to work of of auto attack crits.
If you want a 4th spec then that is what you guys should be asking for or trying to find a way for both subspecs to be as close as possible to identical
I think they would need to return to the wrath model and then build from it, or just absolutely rework the spec entirely. It’s trying to be what Wrath was while trying to be something else and it’s not really working out in the fun factor, or at least when I played.
It has so many problems like Killing Machine for example that has no real purpose in the game outside of a few talents. The ability is flawed and has been since Legion when it was changed. It used to be based off of just auto attacks and gave you a free crit, not its based on crit. The more crit you have the more killing machines you get, but the more crit you have the less you need killing machine since you crit regularly. it’s an example of trying to hold onto what it was, while trying to have a place in this new class fantasy design. Icy talons is another ability trying to hold onto the old system. It used to give 25% attack speed and then unholy presence gave another 5%. I don’t think it’s worth looking at but since I haven’t played since Dec 8th I really don’t know what’s good or not.
They need to pick a direction and go with it. Though slower is not better for the dk. They used to be fast paced even without haste.
I don’t rest my claims of 2H Frost on wanting to be like Arthas. I actually give examples of the mechanics, what was wrong with them, and how to fix them. The aesthetics behind wielding a 2H in Frost is just a major bonus to the argument I am making, thus making it very relevant because this is an RPG after all. Also, I don’t who or what you are talking about when you say “but even those that support 2h don’t know what they want”. What I want is 2H Frost.
On the subject of spec similarity, we’re not talking about citizens’ rights here. Equality of numbers is not the most important attribute of different specs. It’s the functionality per situation, the feel of the spec, the look of the spec, the utility of the spec, and how well the spec supports other classes. There was definitely a purpose for a DPS that focuses on repeated massive hits on single targets, that could also play as a sub-tank if it was absolutely necessary, but that was when we had presences.
When talking specifically about DW over 2H, yeah Dual-Wielding was so awesome and so much existentially better than using a 2-hander that every other Frost DK on the planet immediately rerolled Unholy when Legion dropped, and even more followed in BFA. I have seen all but two Frost DK’s since BFA dropped. One was a lowbie in Durotar and the other was in a Mythic Keystone. Yeah, 1H Frost is the only option for the spec now, thanks to whatever morons implemented it, and it the mechanics are hot garbage. I find it to be a mechanical fallacy that I do more damage fanning people with a Summer breeze than hitting them with an actual weapon.
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It’s not they don’t know what they want, they can’t agree on what they want. There are about 4 different 2h advocates. One that would be fine with a glyph so they can look like Arthas or just look how they want, those that want the option, those that want it because of heavy hitting attacks and those that want 2h back and DW removed.
A little fact though is that DW was hitting just as hard with obliterateate as 2h was just with 15% harder hitting frost damage. So these toothpicks people like you don’t like can hit hard, it’s just people don’t like the direction frost is going currently. Back in wrath blood was critting for around 26k at end game with death strike, obliterate with DW was critting for around 25k without str weapons.
People also follow the dps that are pushing content and early on unholy did better due to the change of Killing Machine. Early on you get 0 procs, or so little to amount to anything because frost has low crit. Any frost dk should of recognized this change that happened in Legion with Killing Machine. That alone was a huge nerf early on while also making it almost pointless.
2h and DW aren’t different specs, it’s just a weapon choice and it’s all it should be. Back in wrath that is all it was, a choice.
And 1h weapons are actual weapons, it’s just that you don’t like it despite all of the reasons DW continued. Also, you haven’t really put forward any mechanics of 2h and most people that want 2h for the heavy hitting obliterates because of a small window during WoD and that was a mistake. Blizzard didn’t listen to the warnings that a lot of us frost dks were saying and even using math to show the problem. They didn’t listen and what we warned about happened and it wasn’t until mages complained did they do something about it.
After that 2h was pretty much dead. They couldn’t get the 2 to work with each other over at least 3 expansions. There is a point where you have to stop.
If you want the possibility for the 2 to exist they would have to be identical in play style and the only difference be DW crit mechanics and Killing Machine procs and people be ok with 2h being lower dps.
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I am starting to feel like I am on the receiving end of a civil rights conflict. I don’t accept compromise to save somebody else heartache or find middle ground with their claim. My desires are legitimate, and widely shared. There was no reason to remove them in the first place. I have reinforced this statement several times.
On the claim that I “haven’t really put forward and mechanics of 2h”, I gave solutions to its biggest problem with talents alone. I mainly PvPd with 2-H Frost, and my solution checked out time and time again, with the only commonality of problematic mechanics being that there was still a notable downtime for Obliterate uses over time. When I said I came up with a “baker’s dozen” of solutions, I wasn’t talking out of furry abyss.
Examples:
Core Problem: Rune Generation
Proposed Solution #1: Killing Machine makes Obliterate free
-With this mechanic, the player would be mandated to focus on haste and attack speed-increasing effects, which would be compensated for by adding a new version of Frost Presence, which would increase the Death Knight’s Auto-Attack speed by 35% and have Killing Machine also be triggered by Frost Fever critical hits. Obviously, when it comes to Killing Machine, Dual-Wielding will always be superior when it comes to plain Auto-Attacking. To make 2-H stand out on its own, a passive ability would need to be implemented: Slaughterhouse.
Slaughterhouse: When wielding a 2-H weapon, Obliterate applies a stack of Lamb to the Slaughter, which causes the target to Bleed for x% of Attack Power over 10 seconds, and takes 5% increased damage from Diseases and Poisons.
Slaughterhouse is just a rough draft of a brainstorm. I felt that with this particular proposal, 2-H would need something slightly extra to allow it to compete with, or at least differentiate it from 1-H. Poison damage boosts and Bleed effects are obviously unsavory for a Death Knight.
Proposed Solution #2: Increase Runic Empowerment chance to 3% per Runic Power in Frost Spec
-The point of this mechanic would be to actually balance Frost’s melee ability usage by encouraging the Death Knight to use Frost Strike in order to generate Runes for Obliterate usage. However, there is an upfront problem: Death Strike. Since it costs 35 Runic Power, using the ability would always trigger Runic Empowerment without fail. As a sub-mechanical solution to fix this, Death Strike’s Runic Power cost would be reduced to 20 Runic Power, and the healing amount would be reduced to 7% plus 45% of all damage taken with the last 4 seconds. This solution is not exactly the best because of Death Strike.
Proposed Solution #3: Restore one Rune and generate 10 Runic Power every time Auto-Attack deals damage (2-H)
-There are likely questions of balance out of the gate here. If the usage of a two-handed weapon in Frost is going focus on Obliterate alone, which is, yes, a moderate mechanical fallacy, then the general scope of the sub-spec also needs to focus on the ability to balance Runic Empowerment triggers and Rune Regeneration. As this particular idea was suspicious to me from the beginning, due to Icy Talons and Murderous Efficiency, the first step would be to reduce the effectiveness of Rime’s damage increase down to 150% (half of the original effect). This would be done to balance the damage the player would be putting out with the improved Auto-Attack mechanic. The Icy Talons talent would have its current stack-application mechanic removed and replaced with a passive 10% attack speed increase. Now, because this change would make Icy Talons so much more attractive over the other two talents, Inexorable Assault would be replaced with an on-use ability that causes Obliterate to deal Frost damage for 10 seconds (1-minute cool-down). I believe Murderous Efficiency would be able to remain the same without causing any unbalance to the spec.
By this point with this specific mechanical concept, there is probably the question of 1-H mechanical compensation, considering that Rime was gutted in half to compensate for 2-H’s mechanics. There most definitely would be compensation to balance the sub-specs, whilst establishing concepts of speed vs strength between the two.
Likely in the form of a passive ability listed in the spell-book, 1-H weapon-wielders would receive an overall 30% Attack Speed increase, along with a 20% Frost Strike damage increase.
Proposed Solution #4: Implement an alternate version of Rune of Razor Ice called Rune of Icy Razor, and a modification made to Frost Strike and Runic Empowerment.
Rune of Icy Razor: Emblazon your 2-handed weapon with the Rune of Icy Razor, causing your weapon to deal +10% damage as Frost damage, and causing each of your Obliterate strikes to apply a stack of Razor Pierce, reducing the target’s armor by 8%. Maximum 5 stacks.
-The implementation of this Rune is designed to take a Louisville Slugger approach in that the intention is for the player to apply tremendous amounts of pressure in short bursts. To compensate for the Rune downtime that would render Obliterate unusable, Frost Strike’s Runic Power cost would be reduced to 18 from 25 (perhaps an effect to be added to the 2-H Rune itself to prevent 1-H from potentially becoming over-powered with such a bonus). This Runic Power modification is intended to give 2-H wielders a “wind-down” period where they would theoretically dump all of the Runic Power they accumulated into Frost Strike, simultaneously giving providing the player with the chance to recover some runes to re-up on Obliterate. Runic Empowerment being buffed to 2.5% chance per Runic Power spent would be considered to alleviate the now-low Frost Strike Runic Power cost.
Possible Issue: This build may result in 2-H Frost turning into a back and forth between spamming Obliterate and spamming Frost Strike.
Came up with these four today. Took me about 2 hours to sort it all out and then write it down in an organized format. I already know this is not going to get any traction anywhere outside of this post and that is not why I wrote it. The point is that there are infinite approaches to take in solving a mechanical problem in a game. Modify some components, add or change the abilities, change the playstyle… ad infinitum. But, removing an entire concept altogether? Seriously?
Readers, do with this what you will. Pick it apart. Criticize it. Add to it. Remove things. I am mainly brainstorming here, yet these are potential solutions that I carefully thought out and considered in real time. Cheers!
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2 hours for that which boils down to more resources so I can obliterate more and an armor shred?
My solution took 10 minutes to think up because it goes off of the differences between the 2 specs. The main issue is they were trying to seperate the weapon sets, just like they did with single minded fury and that is gone too.
Combine Fallen Crusader and Razorice. Call it whatever you want, but now that isnt an issue anymore. DW isnt getting the 15% frost damage buff.
Have the damage be the same so if there needs to be a nerf then it should be needed no matter what weapon you use. This is in place so that one nerf made to one weapon set doesnt have an impact on the other in a negative way. That was one of the issues that was happening in each expansion.
Then it all comes down to what should the playstyle be? Im a fan of the Wrath playstyle. Heavy hitting obliterates, Rime gave runic power since it acted like you spent a rune, diseases and the spreading of them through pestilence. If death rune conversion is too much for people then you can leave it out. Diseases making your strikes hit harder or heal more.
This is kind of how 2h played in later expansions. The thing is, you need a good core to build upon and the talents dont build upon the core gameplay of Frost at the moment. Killing Machine is a huge mess of a design.
Has anyone ever really sat down and read Killing Machine and what it does? You have to build crit, to get a guaranteed crit… what? It would be like fire mages getting 2 crits back to back to just get a guaranteed crit and not an instant pyro. Its bad design.
But at least with my changes because it is taking the issues that were happening, and solving them. You are trying to solve 2+2 but going off on something else. If you want 2h back, it could be done tomorrow with my solution that was thought up in 10 minutes. Recognize the difference between the 2 specs and solve those issues. THEN you can start making things interesting.
I like obliterate too. It would hit like an absolute truck even when you would DW. They need to do 1 of 2 things. Strip the spec down to its core that we have now, Rime, KM, Obliterate, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and how it all functions together and then build off of that, or just go the route that they are taking which I dont think is all that fun or interesting.
I think you 2h supporters think if you have anything to say against their position then you must hate 2h. Which its just not true. I think you should have the choice. And that is it, a choice. If you like DW then DW, if you like 2h then use a 2h. The problem comes up when you start trying to make them different within the same spec.
Tell me, how many subspecs did they remove? All of them. Dark Apotheosis = gone. 2h Frost = gone. Single Minded Fury = Gone. Gladiator Stance = Gone.
Your best bet is to just try to get the weapon option back, otherwise you are just wasting your time because Blizzard will most likely never do the subspec thing again.
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You should be a politician.
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I think the way it works is. If you want 2h back you need to start posting about now much you love DW. And how much damage it does. Then the powers that be might switch just so you don’t a great DW.
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That is a big problem with the game as it is right now at least in my eyes. There is not a lot of things to make your toon YOUR TOON. Ever class and spec has a very specific thing they have to fit into.
Enhancement Shaman is another good example of this. Just like the Death Knight an Enhancement Shaman HAS to use 2 one handed weapons or they cant fire off there main damage.
I understand it is hard to balance around things like that but things like that and the loss of tier gear (all mail wearing the same set, all plate and so on) no one feels unique. I know you can use transmogs but still.
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2h is dead, and it isn’t going to come back if you are trying to create a spec within a spec. Those days are dead too.
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Hopefully 2H is one of the things that they talked about restoring in 9.0.
2H Frost, SMG, and 2H Enh are some of the most requested features that players want to see back in the game.
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