I feel bad for the devs working on WotLK SoM

I don’t understand. 10-man drops the same loot, right? So why would we be focused on raiding with 24 other people?

They don’t really have a choice. In order for these heroics to remain relevant through the phases, their difficulty needs to be increased. However, if they just do a flat increase across the board, then MANY players will be shafted, and unable to run them because players in ToC (or even ICC) gear should find them challenging.

Perhaps the appeal will mostly be related to lockouts and gearing quickly. You can do 50+ Heroic+ dungeons in a week, so you’ll be guaranteed a full set of 200-213 ilvl gear in one week. In a 10-man, you’re potentially competing against people and you’re only looking at a handful of drops weekly.

Ideally, you’ll do both things.

You’re never guaranteed anything in a system based on RNG.

Because Naxx 25 being thrown out as a superior alternative. Even vs 10m if it’s dropping the same level it’s still easier to run 5 than 10

As for the challenging aspect that’s why M+ comes with levels. To meet every players gearing situation with an appropriate challenge. M0 is for fresh chars with maybe a few heroics. Then it can be scaled upward from there. That way nobody is ever screwed. They can work their way up.

Again I don’t know their endgame goal here. Also I say mythic, they call it heroic+. Same thing in my eyes

What do you mean no one asked for it? Dropping 10 man raid gear into more difficult heroics seems like a win/win to me. They are trying to find ways to keep the current content from becoming completely obsolete.

You mean like making RDF so people can run Maradon?

They are trying to find ways to make the content interesting. I’m certainly interested.

People are literally screaming their heads off for ways to make it easy to run Sunken Temple. Why would people waste time running completely irrelevant content when they could run something that’s maybe actually a little more fun and challenging when done with the appropriate gear?

They aren’t supposed to be relevant to high end raiders. They’re meant to be done in straight up heroic gear.

Because it will have different mechanics and be more interesting? Remember the running dungeons for fun part that so many people have been screaming about?

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I would say this is more subjective than objective.

Yes, that’s what I was getting at.

You should rewatch the interviews/announcements for it. They said it’s meant to keep heroics relevant for players (even raiders) into and past Ulduar.

They literally said exactly that during their broadcast. Having a way to gear that’s not tied to a 7 day lockout.

There’s a number of reasons to run through these new versions of the old content in my opinion.

Don’t feel bad for them, they choose this silly, " no PLANS for rdf" hill they planted a flag on. lol

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What about run with other 9?
I’ve emphasized that Naxx 10 / os 10 would drop 213 ilvl gear/226 and EoE 10 will drop 226 gear going forward next patch.

If Heroic+ require the same gear that you would need to do the entry raids, why would you do heroic+ instead?

Assuming the difficult for you as a healer with entry gear healing a heroic + is almost the same as Naxx 10, you would do a heroic+ (if invited) until you can get a raid.

Ok, bear with me.

  • Heroic+ is harder than heroics.
  • Heroic+ require about the same gear to do as CURRENT 10/25 man content (naxx/eoe/os).
  • Heroic+ will drop ilvl 200 from naxx 10 / os 10 (doubt it will drop 213 from malygos as it said ilvl 200 only).
  • Naxx 10 / EoE 10 / OS 10 next patch will start dropping loot from the 25 man, that is: 213/226 ilvl gear.
  • Naxx 25 / EoE 25 / OS 25 will still drop 213/226.

With all that said:

  • Heroic+ has the same requirement in gear for phase 1 raids
  • Heroic+ has worse loot than both 10/25 man phase 1 content
  • Heroic+ is harder than heroics and the rewards are slightly better than regular heroics

Even if I call it “questionable value” from Heroic+, it seems a lot waste of time. For me, with my alts, I will not do heroic + for gearing, I’ll simply do NEO (Naxx, eye of eternity, OS) 10 and 25. It is easier, faster, and the chance of getting loot is higher.

A guild willing to EQUIP a new hire or someone that had to reroll, will not run the person through Heroic+.

They will run that person through Naxx 10 and possibly naxx 25 if needed. It is 1 night with guaranteed almost full bis phase 1.

Maybe this will be how RDF gets in the game. Allow RDF for baseline heroics. Then for heroic+ you have to use the current system

Yeah I would rather take 4 guildies with them then drag 9 into a raid. Also I can run those heroic+s all day until they get that gear. With the raid I’m tied to a lockout.

I would much rather run people through dungeons than raids. No questions asked on that one

Help if they said that, still hits the unbalanced and low population servers real bad. Bet they opened paid transfers around that time…lol

Yes I know how the numbers work.

Okay sure this all seems somewhat true.

I disagree. It seems like a different way to gear that’s not tied to a 7 day lockout.

Me personally, I’d rather gear myself in any way I can instead of depending on my guild to carry me through raids and funnel me gear. There’s a sense of accomplishment when I get the items myself. I like to go into a raid looking my best and this gives me an option to do that.

Not to mention people that maybe aren’t in raiding guilds that aren’t going to Ulduar that want to get some better stuff.

Look, just because you don’t choose to engage with the content for whatever your reasons are doesn’t mean it’s not engaging. It’s not cool to drop a giant :poop: on content you haven’t seen or tried.

You can keep dreaming here, they aren’t even planning to make it its own category for LFD. He even said “our plan is to let you form the group and then figure it out” which I think is great. Should go over well right? LOL.

Listen at 25:35. The challenges will always come from being 1 tier behind the current content, until they are trying to get hard mode gear into these heroic mode dungeons. Then they are talking about perhaps making additional difficulties, but they said very specifically they aren’t tuned or planning to tune them around raid geared players.

This hasn’t been decided yet however and I think it’ll be difficult for them to find a way to get hard mode gear into heroics without diminishing the prestige of having got them when they are current content.

I’m sure. You’ll do heroic+ until you’re full geared.
But you’ll still be ilvl 200, which is basically what heroics allow you to get today without stepping into raid.

I can’t follow your logic here. You’ll gear faster pugging NEO10 / NEO25 than doing heroic+ and better (213/226 on raid, 200 on heroic+)

The headache that’s gonna bring is going to be comical. No reason not to separate them

they’ll be under dungeons, Heroic, Heroic+, just like we have today.

My logic is… I would like to do the heroics with different difficulties and mechanics. I couldn’t care less what gear I do or don’t get from new and different content.

OR I could do exactly the same raid for exactly the same gear that has been dropping since release. Seems like less fun.

I’m also an enchanter so … when he’s talking about abyss crystal futures you know he’s not kidding. Keep dumping while you still get good value for it.

Did you actually listen to the thing you posted the link for?

Let me help you out here, 16:30.

I’m looking forward to the feature but I have my doubts that the larger player base will adopt it. It’ll be just like TBC, where the heroics were kinda of difficult without gear but Kara was stupid easy and gave better rewards. With Naxx 10 dropping 213/226 loot and being quite easy, gearing up in heroic+ doesn’t have the same incentive. I still think they’ll be fun for me as a challenge mode of sorts but if people aren’t getting shiny rewards in this game it tends to be an activity they don’t pursue.

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OK, so you completely missed the point. This is a CATCH-UP mechanism they’re adding.
I couldn’t care less about how do you feel about doing Season of Mastery for Dungeons. You’ll do it once and then you’ll not be doing it again because:

So let me remind you:

A catch-up mechanism is for a new character to gear up and go for the new content. The great catch-up mechanism WILL NOT be the heroic+ as they announced but the fact 10 man raids will drop 25 man loot, so you have 2 lockouts to gear full 213 and maybe some 226 pieces so you can go Ulduar.

No one will be “happy” doing 50+ heroic+ to get ilvl 200 gear (which is the same gear that dropped from Naxx 10) and you’ll still be under geared compared to the new content.

Abyss devalues over time but we also get to break the abyss into greater cosmic essence / infinite dust, to compensate the lack of greens.

Yes, I did. That is a mistake, the PTR data shows a new section for heroic+ on LFD.