The alliance must be punished.
afaik The first ones are not mentioned in DF.
According to Metzen, DF and TWW are from Danuser + Team. He sort of said the story was already done when he returned.
I just believe that if it appears on Blizzard’s own panels as a reason why SL failed, there must be something to it. They certainly have market researchers.
yup.
A gatekeeper is someone who controls access to something, such as information, resources, or opportunities, deciding who gets through and who does not.
I don’t have such power. I’m just a regular who doesn’t like the changes on the menu. 
They do.
However, explaining this now would derail the thread.
If you want an list, here you go:
https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/comments/rkmhbl/can_people_summarize_how_shadowlands_retcons_the/
So apparently it’s not just any addition, but any addition that imposes a different interpretation.
A different interpretation logically contradicts the preceding one. If this were not the case, nothing would be different, right?
Focusing solely on the direct wording of definitions frequently results in losing sight of a word’s meaning.
I think they can be determined objectively.
That’s also a problem. Metzen isn’t getting any less criticism for this, is he? However, rewriting my book is not the same as having someone else scribble in my work.
‘Danuser has overturned and reinterpreted Lore of Metzen and the other guys; why can’t it be the other way around?’
Doesn’t matter, since you’re not refering to Chronicle. We’re discussing Xe’ra’ on Argus.
Regarding the lore team: That’s incorrect. Because of various story decisions, there was a big hate for the lore team. It got so bad that there was a lot of gloating when one or two members were fired during a wave of layoffs. One member of the lore team clarified then that they do not make narrative decisions. They just keep track of it
If anyone still has the tweet, please feel free to share it.
Here is another good insight.
No. I shouldn’t have to rely on outside sources at all. Not even books. But that’s how it is.
I have no idea which side is in front of you. In my case, it appears in the body text rather than the trivia section. Regardless, the trivia section is backed up by sources and thus a reliable source. Perhaps you are confusing it with the ‘Speculation’ section.
In terms of cherry-picking: No. Rather the opposite is true. Although I dislike the lore from the interview, and I even share some of your preferences, I recognise it as canon and do not try to bend it to suit my differing personal preferences.
Unlike you. 
It has happened several times before?
I’m surprised by your reaction here, given that you didn’t think the First Ones were good a few posts ago and ‘retcons are a natural part of storytelling’. Apparently you disagree not to defend your position, but simply to disagree with me.
And of course, none of this has anything to do with the topic and is simply a continuation of your failed ad hominem. I’m going to stop here. If you want to return to the main topic, be my guest.
Yes they are. They are canon. Suck it up.
SO he never opted to remove it. Got it.
Boring gameplay was the reason not bad lore.
Shadowlands felt more like warcraft then anything else. Real aliens are stuff like Draenei.
Nothing was overturned. Danuser added something that wasn’t there. Why cope so ahrd about Titans no longer being the top dogs when thes themselves always said they brought order not creation. Sounds like Odyn propaganda. Metzen rolled with it. And even in TWW everything point sin that the Titans are infact not the good guys in thie story, LIke every other cosmic power too.
Canon status was never disputed. You claimed that the First Ones were mentioned in DF. Since I don’t know the source and can’t find it on WarcraftWiki, I’d like to know where?
You will certainly be able to back up your claim.
Of course not, since he didn’t have the opportunity.
We’ll see if he continues, changes, or rejects this storyline.
https://static.inven.co.kr/column/2024/03/22/news/i8271236751.jpg
Agree’d.
First, there is Chronicle.
Second, there is this:
We’re talking about the light, not the Titans.
This shift in the narrative is, in my opinion, a creative failure. There is a slim chance Metzen can help improve this poor performance. But of course, I might be mistaken and disappointed. In fact, this is very likely. Time will tell.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Edicts_of_the_Prime_Designate,_Volume_742
Second: Attribute all accomplishments and works of wonder to the titans alone.
Despite the relentless arguments made by some of you, this is not a fallacy. After all, can anything truly be said to exist until it has been ordered? Of course not.
Therefore, it is irrefutable that the titans are the source of all creation.
Third: Do not share knowledge of the First Ones.
Mortals could not conceive of the wonders that the makers granted to the titans in Zereth Ordus. Thus, learning of the Progenitors would only confuse them.
It is enough that mortals know the titans brought Order to the cosmos, and that they are owed deference.
I would like to have a LIGHT Crusade where the Alliance is the attacker.
That would at least bring something new and it would be interesting for both sides to swap roles.
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Ah, I see. Thanks for providing.
Calling that an overturn would be an understatement, though.
This is Odyn telling his fellow watchers to spread the fakenews that the Titans are the only true gods and that First One involvement is to be silenced.
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Yes. It actually can. A system in chaos still exists, even if chaos is its natural state.
This is just a plain weird argument stance to take.
this is not me, this is Odyn’s report.-
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Oh crap, it is. I even opened the link to the in-game book, but somehow missed that line.
My bad!! I cannot believe I’m gonna say this, but sorry Erevine!!
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They are, in the books you can find in the new version of Uldaman.
But that was not the reasons SL failed, i watched the panel, and it was mainly because of the jailer being badly developped and introduced too quickly as a big threat out of nowhere.
How is not warcraft?
You remind me of peoples who said that TWW was not Warcraft, while it have dwarves, humans, trolls and nerubians.
You know i actually couldnt help laughing while i have read you there, and i mean, as if i laughed to a good joke, not a mocking or arrogant laugh. It was a funny one.
Well, the First Ones dont retcon anything, because in Chronnicles and before that, it was never epxlained how the universe came to be, so i dont see why First Ones are a retcon.
Therefore the list is wrong.
Its a bit of a problem, because the thing is, people often call retcon what they think they know.
For example, Nathrezim being not originally demons retcon or not? I will say its a 50/50 because :
If you think about it : what older infos was? Sargeras fought demons, and one of the 2 kind of demons eredar and nathrezim corrupted him after countless battles (that was war3 manual version)
Then chronnicles came and said that : Sargeras traveled to a world corrupted by the Void and encountered demons : the nathrezim.
Now, SL says, that Nathrezim were not originally demons : its not a retcon because :
They were created as non demon long before Sargeras encountered them, they infiltrated the cosmic forces again, long before Sargeras encountered them, meaning that, since they infiltrated the force of Disorder and abaosbred fel energies, they became demons : and THEN they encountered Sargeras, so Sargeras still encountered demons Nathrezim.
Here is why its not a retcon, or at least not a contradictory one (as i explained above the term retcon is ANY additions to an already eixsting story)
Thatts the thing with SL and its retcons, people want them to be inconsistent wiht older lore, so they WILL say it is.
Which is not synonimous with inconsistent, or contradiciton, and as i said ; Well, Vashj is an elf : who became naga = retcon which give new interpetation of the character, and not contradicting anything.
Well, no, as i gave you in the example above, Vashj was still an elf, she became naga, which is not going agaisnt the fact she was an elf, you get my point? You can give new interpretations without contradicting previous informations. Thats the beauty of a good retcon.
Like the one with the Nathrezim, which i gave also as example, is changes your interpetation of them, but dont contradict previous infos, they still demons for someo f them.
They can;, but just like the one with first ones and nathrezim, they are decided unfairly and dishonestly as contradictory, as i explained above why they dont in fact contradict.
Well, i have a perfect example of that : Tolkien, which himself often contradicted himself and did not even know himself sometimes what version of his world building to choose : His son choose for him which means he did put his hands on his father’s work.
Yet Lotr is an awesome fantasy universe and Tolkien and son regarded as amazing.
Story just have retcons thats how it is, its just the proces of writing a story, and condamining a story or elements because they retcon is just dishonest and kinda not knowing how a story is written.
But Danuser was not alone himself when he did that…and as i again said : It can be the other wy around as it is the proces of writing.
I just think that, interviews are mainly here to explain things that are not clear in game.
When for example there is not clear thing in game, like its too vague, asking dev or writer to clarify is good in interview.
But when writiers start to go into some kind of, full fleged fictions, like, in that same interview when guy says “ho you will see world of the titans!” and all that stuff, i mean…i will beleive it when i see it mate.
I dont see why what i say here contradict what i said above, i may not like the first ones as a concept, but they are here and now we have to deal with them and accept the fact they are here.
And well, retconsare part of the story yes, and its why the devs never criticize their fellow devs.
When did it happens? At which moment did a writers said about another one like “ho yeah this was bad writing, will remove it”
IDK man, the whole Scarlet Crusade and Arathi Empire kinda proves that theory wrong.
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Typical business euphemisms. Bad Storytelling was one of many reasons. Some of them you can see here: https://static.inven.co.kr/column/2024/03/22/news/i8271236751.jpg
It misses core identiy features imo. If you remove the cameos and look at SL as a standalone game, you won’t recognize it as Warcraft. It’s more like one of those rip-offs.
Too cosmic, too theme park-like, and too far from Azeroth with it’s mostly grounded tropes; the races have nothing to do with it either. Yes, including the undead. They’re nothing like the scourge or the forsaken. Looks aren’t enough. It needs the soul. 
Of course, there are differing views on this. Since it is ultimately a feeling, it is highly subjective.
The Warcraft big bang between light and void was seen as the origin of the universe.
It was depicted as a chance occurrence, not artifical construced.
Just as in the Great Dark Beyond, life had also arisen in the Twisting Nether. The creatures that emerged from this turbulent realm were known as demons. They had been formed as a result of the Light and Void energies that had bled together at the borders of the Twisting Nether. […]
Demons came in many forms. Some, like the two-headed void hounds, roamed the trackless wastes of the Nether like ravenous beasts. Others, such as the monstrous abyssals and infernals, were mindless amalgamations of matter and fel energy, created by more powerful and intelligent demons. Among these greater demons were the nathrezim, otherwise known as dreadlords. Cunning and manipulative, they dedicated their existence to mastering the arts of shadow magic. The nathrezim relished infiltrating mortal civilizations, sowing unrest, and turning nation against nation. As these societies devolved and crumbled from within, the nathrezim would corrupt their populations, twisting innocents into new and horrific breeds of demon.
Chronicle Vol 1, pg. 34/35
Secret agents of the Jailer, huh?
It’s a retcon.
Reconsider and don’t fall for the new authors sleight of hands.
I think it’s more dishonest to steal my time and money by then devaluing the product I purchased. Neither of the retcons improved the story.
A good writer is able to develop creative greatness on the foundation that has been built for him and the limitations that come with it. A bad writer has to tear down part of the foundation and rewrite it because he can’t think of anything better. It hurts the flow of the story and creates inconsistent and therefore unpleasant worldbuilding.
If he didn’t do it himself, he enabled or permitted it. That’s the disadvantage of responsibility: as a boss, you earn more money because you are accountable for the outcome.
But that is precisely what the interview is about. The writer was made aware of the conflict between A’dal and Xe’ra and responded to the question by stating that Naaru hold different views.
Shouldn’t you also hope that the First Ones get retconned, then?
Candy for the eyes
Q: Did Metzen had a big role when he came back, in establishing story goals for the next 5 years sort of thing?
A: Metzen coming back has obviously been a big shakeup and he wasted basically no time jumping back in head first. While I noticed changes to the future narrative after his return, most of his work occurs above my level of involvement.
(Source is in my previous post)
You did not write anything about public criticism. You stated: ‘New or previous writers will never undo what has been done.’
Some examples:
The Warcraft RPG
Me’dan
Chronicle (thanks for the DF-Source, it’s proving my point)
It will undoubtedly be done with sleight of hand again. The First Ones will most likely not disappear from any texts, you’re right about that. It’ll look more like this: ‘Dear Xal’atath has traveled back in time (remember her appearance in SOD and MoP Remix?) and forged false history texts (such as the DF Source) to subvert Azeroth’s trust in the Titans, thereby weakening them. It pits former friends against each other, causing doubt and conflict. A masterful intrigue. 
But wait, there is more: The first ones never existed. Xal’atath made them up to deceive the Jailer. His masterplan was actually part of her masterplan.’
And yeah, that’s the ‘Big Conspiracy’.
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Still dont say anything about retcons, story telling is a different thing as retcons.
I perfectly recognized Warcraft without the cameos you are just being dishonest here, or at last its your pov.
Dont see inwhat way its more cosmic than Legion.
Dont get that point.
“Too grounded” lul you seeing a giant titan from space stabbing the world was grounded sure…
And old gods are not grounded either.
At least you admit it, but for real, when you tell me Azeroth have grounded tropes thats wrong, and we also went in Outland during TBC it was in space. And in Woltk we had Ulduar, it was not grounded >< and in Cata you had dragon breaking the world etc…
And i mean, in vanilla, you fight the god of fire in the very frist raid, thats not grounded.
It was not how the universe came to be, re-read the part about it. It says that at frist they was the Light, and First Ones are said to have created the 6 Forces, meaning the Light, so they created the Light and was before that event, so no it dont retvon how the Light came to exist, it explains how the Light happenned.
“According to Chronicle Volume 1, before life began and the universe itself existed, the Light existed alone as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded, pockets of cold nothingness appeared.”
You just say that the Light was made by First Ones and here you have it.
But TBC tells us that infernals were formed from elementals that were corrupted.
Then again, in what way does it contradict events which occured to say that they were not from the Nether? It dont change anything.
You just being “ho no its retcon because omnicient pov from chronnicles told me its from the nether” well ok, but it dont change anything about the story…
And you know, Chronnicles was doomed to be retconed anyway since you cant say that everyting is ste in stone when your univers is not over.
“New authors” do i need to inform you that Metzen was in agreement with SL? Yes he was, and i know it, you know how i know it? Because he do the voice of Thrall in SL, he even says “the jailer is mighty being” etc, if Metzen was really agaisnt the idea, and would consider that to be agaisnt his lore, he would not have signed up for this.
Thats your pov to say that the retcons did not improve the story, and also, you are nowhere forced to give that time and money, you are just being childish here. Read ToS and come back to me.
Then Tolkien and son are bad writers, because Tolkien said that the orcs are elves which got corrupted…then how the orcs are not immortal then? He never adressed this issue.
Just like Metzen allowed the Danuser writings. Since Metzen was a lore advisor and also voiced stuff in SL.
Yeah, they have different views but want the same thing…and Xe’ra did not do anything about A’dal ruining her plans? So where is the answer to Xe’ra not doing anything?
Yes, and so what? It will be a retcon of a retcon and thus, you will get the snake biting its own tail, you will even say “thats good retcon!” hahaha
I was talking about public yes, and i dont see in what retconing means they dont like it. Since they not fully reased.
As for Me’dan and Warcraft RPG…they were decanonized by the same person who made them in the frsit place. So you are being wrong here.
No i dont remember her apparence there because she was not here…i am tired of seeing this stupid theory. Its NOT Xal’atath, give any proof that it is here.
And the idea of her going back in time is stupid, stop with that. Now, the only fact, that you bring this stupid theory up, is making me just angry, i will break and debunk this theory again and again.
Thats stupid, and wrong, because TWW continue to makes us quesiton the titans with the Archaedas logs. So you are just being a kind of foolish here.
So basically, you are making Xal’atath into a Jailer 2.0, because you are bascially giving her credits for a lot of things that we never saw her do, whih is what people hated about the jailer, the fact that everyone tells you he did a ton of stuff, but we never saw him do anything.
And giving so much credit to Xal’atath is also bad, because…come on, why people are so hyped about her? She is so lame as a character.
More like : Big headcanoon that will never happen. And also, using time travel to fix the lore? Thats just the wrost thing you could think of…
Dam i am angry now and i just see what kind of person you are…
She has that wreck less abandon. She is kinda sultry and slinks about. She is similar to Sylvanas in that regard - except Sylvanas put up a front about caring. Xalatath is just a meanie face.
I wonder if she would have as many fans if we put her body into some female Kul Tiran instead.
I thought Priscilla Ashvane was kind of cool, but she wasn’t around very long. It would have been nice to have Humans who hate the Proudmoore family out there causing trouble with a gang of pirates… but that was not to be.
And Captain Owings in BfA was fun to deal with. At least she broke the racial stereotypes going on, by working with the Horde.
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All she ever did was staring and thats it.
I think not, and also, showing off her feet less 
Ashevane actually have more ebeliable and better motives than Xal’atath, because at least Ashevane have a reason to hate the Proudmoor and me “evil” Xal’atath’s reasons are…she is evil because she is evil.
Xal’atath is bscially a lesser version of an Azshara, like, everything you want from Xal’atath is in Azshara but Azshara is better since Azshara is a bit more interesting and cooler because Azshara at least have interesting goals and relationshop toward other characters, but no people still drool over Xal’atath…
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I find a lot of these discussions about if something is a retcon depend on a definition of a retcon.
- For some it is a hard line, it wasn’t in the lore before so it was a retcon
- For some anything that looks like a change is a retcon
- For some, as long as an explanation can be made to rectify any apparent conflict it is not a retcon.
- Etc.
Take:
I don’t think anyone can claim the Dreadlords were not originally envisioned as just powerful demons. They weren’t originally part of Zoval’s plan. Does that make it a retcon?
Can that old lore and the new lore be explained in a way that are both correct? Well, yes. They were demons, Warcraft has long established that someone can become a demon, look at Illidan. So, even if they were not demons originally (created in the SL) they had certainly become them. And at the time that quote is discussing they had certainly become ones that could be described as “more powerful and intelligent demons.” It can be explained. So, is it a retcon?
Ultimately:
- It can be described as a retcon, because it is a change from the original plan.
- It can also be said to be a clarification (new Lore) and thus not a retcon because it doesn’t directly conflict with the old lore.
Both are fair takes, it all depends on where you draw the line of what constitutes a retcon.
And I think a lot of people fixate on perceived retcons as a ‘see, this is why SL was bad.’ A lot of SL was bad, regardless of what you consider a retcon. I don’t think the fact it was a departure from past plans is why it was bad.
And point of fact: Retcons can be a good thing.
See example: Me’dan
Blizzard removing him from cannon was a VERY good choice.
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Gothic Churches have a passion an intensity that is lacking in the comparative sterility of places like the Crystal Cathedral. The great cathedrals were literaly centuries in the building and it shows.
That’s the kind of dedication that would make generation ships to the stars possible.
I had to look this up because I never heard of it before, and I am very upset I did. I do not see sterile (though I get why you do). I see a gaudy attempt to look scifi. It is so hideous!! No. No thank you to that. Yuck and ew.