I disagree on this part. There are clear “good guys if abit flawed”. At its heart, Warcraft has always been “good vs evil” with Warcraft 3 adding a “anti war/discrimination” message to it. Hence why despite her flaws Jaina and Thrall have for the most part managed to remain heroic
Maybe…my thing is though is not so much these character’s flaws but rather they dont seem to be given many opportunities to do good. I dont “really” think Thrall and Jaina are evil but I have a hard time calling them good because outside of “saving the world from X big bad” they dont have any of those smaller character-building moments.
Tho I will concede, Thrall going off helping the Stormrook people was cool, though I remember at the time it felt weird because it was one of the first kinda “good guy” things I seen him do in a long time.
I want to see more main characters have opportunities to do smaller good acts, and I mean really have them go out of their way to help people like Anduin did in MoP.
Oh no Med’an still exists he just isn’t the Guardian anymore.
Interestingly Tipping Point just did that for Shaw.
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New antagonist wasn’t developed
→ Nobody liked the Jailer. But why?
→ The Jailer’s only ‘selling point’ was that he was behind everything.
→ The fact that he was behind everything is the retcon
1+1=2
Well, you asked for my opinion. Feel free to see it differently.
But know that I am not alone in this sentiment.
A usual pov of an endgame player who doesn’t read quests.
Proportionalities are decisive.
Exactly. That’s what I call a sleight of hand. Or a ‘soft retcon’, which attempts to conceal the fact that the story was changed afterwards.
You may have discovered another inconsistency there.
First and foremost, it establishes lore that the Jailer is responsible for Sargeras, the Burning Legion, the Scourge and Aedelas Blackmoore being a drunk.
They are all his pawns, micromanaged by the Nathrezim.
Why? I do not need to rewrite the past for future stories.
Yes, I’ve already said that. See one of my posts above.
A retcon to correct an inconsistency is justified imo.
Minus times minus equals plus.
Wasn’t Medan created by Simonson?
Regarding the RPG, you are technically correct. I believe Kosak’s new cosmology was one of the main reasons the WarcraftRPG was decanonized, as he reinterpreted the entire lore about arcane magic. So let me clarify my point on that.
The lack of options for who it could be and the shadowy figures’ attitiude.
The only option would have been Azshara. But since the figure is clearly a high elf, that’s out of the question.
Aiming for an useless ad hominem again, I see.
I was rather being ironic.
However, if Blizzard wanted to reinterpret the story, I’m confident that they would write it exactly the same way. And if this happens and you say you don’t like it, you will receive the same responses as I did in this thread:
- It’s not a bad fan fiction / head canon, it’s lore!
- It’s not a retcon or a re-interpretation! They didn’t changed any text!
- Even if it is, it’s a natural part of storytelling!
- It’s much more interesting this way!
- Time Travel is part of wow since classic!
You’re right about that.
Yet, I think the second point is true.
A retcon is essentially changing an already-written story. Why sould it matter whether there is a good, bad, or no explanation at all? The story has been changed retrospectively. That’s the only factor that determines the meaning of the term.
Of course. The origin of the Nathrezim was later changed. To achieve compatibility in Chronicle, you must intentionally misinterpret and bend the words, engage in technical wordsmithing, and ignore the author’s intention.
Why does the origin matter? Because of the consequence. It determines the Nathrezim’s loyalty. In this results in storywriting like this:
‘When Argus died, his soul traveled to the Shadowlands, where it slammed into the Arbiter and disabled her, as the soul of a titan is not intended to be sent there. This was a result of the nathrezim, secret agents of the Jailer who had infiltrated the Burning Legion long ago, who convinced Sargeras to let them twist Argus’ soul with Death magic in order to power a resurrection engine for his demonic armies. In actuality, the nathrezim had done this in order to turn Argus into a “death titan”, using its soul as a “maul with which to crush the Arbiter” as part of their master’s plans’
However, the aforementioned fact, particularly the Jailer’s claim to a large portion of the game’s main story, is a major point of criticism.
This isn’t about principles like ‘It is bad because it is a retcon’.
No. It is bad because it was retconned. It’s about specific changes.
True, but it’s rare.
Those storylines should be kept separate. Then they can be fully fleshed out to provide more content.
Plus, the “mortal villain who’s actually being manipulated by a cosmic force” story beat has rather worn out its welcome at this point in WoW.
True, though between lovers of aesthetics and whiny malcontents with an axe to grind against the Catholic Church/Christianity/religion as a whole, it’s become a stale cliche.
Please stop the IRL comparisons. Really. No one is attacking the church.
Maybe not on here. But yeah, plenty of people attack the church. For plenty of good reasons
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bringing IRL politics into video games for no reason is why so many titles flopped recently. Like Dragon Age Veilguard.
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That’s not the reason most games flop. A poor thought out story and terrible gameplay are what kill most games.
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Dragon Age veilguard had many problems.
- ignoring previous established choices that did not make the cut from Inquisition.
- stale new companions.
- actual social issues from the game story are not fixed(Elves of Tevinter are still slaves)
- making too many big bad evils at the same time who could have been their own game(the two remaining arch demons)
- leaving Thedas for the next title and going to a land nobody has ever heard of(after the epilouge).
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And here I thought it was poor gameplay and boring story were the problem.
Statements like this are actually bringing your IRL politics into a video game, because you focus on some minor, optional thing over the actual issues regarding the game itself.
You flopped.
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EA killed Dragon Age and Bioware. Anachronisms in a dark fantasy certainly didn’t help, but I’m gonna hang this one on every senior designer and writer fleeing the sinking ship amidst a game that was rewritten at least twice in development hell that dragged on for… what, 10 years?
They ruined the elven mythology and their social status wasn’t improved.
Reasons that could also be applied to every other group at some point in their history but seldom are.
My point was, whatever the writers’/artists’ reasons, media in general with baddies whose visual design is based on the Catholic Church is cliche at this point.
There’s more, like;
6. Wiping out Southern Thedas in footnotes.
7. Not carrying over major choices from previous games.
8. Underusing Elgar’nan (was actually satistifed with how Ghilan’nain was in the story).
9. Shoehorning in “the Executors”.
Evanuris are to Dragon Age what the Jailer is to WoW.
the elven gods existed since Origins the new thing is that they are evil tyrants corrutped by the Blight.
True. My analogy wasn’t foolproof. I was more thinking the effect they had on the story (and how much fans “liked” it).
But…its what i told you, the Jailer is the problem people pointed out, not the Shadowlands overall…you just proving my point here.
I did read quest, and you do fight a god of fire that once sumoned destroyed 3 zones. Still not grounded mate.
And dragons are not grounded either you know? Dragons are like divine stuff too.
You also fight a loa in raid, and an old god.
Still dont contradict stuff.
I mean, welcome to Chronnicles, its like, i love how so many people say how chronnicles is good and sl bad, because “ho but sl did retcons” but chronnicles did massive ones too.
It dont? Because the jailer did not oroder this to happen. It happenned, and also, Denatrhius did the dreadlords without the jailer asking, Denatrhius is the real dude behind the Nathrezim, not the jailer.
Again no, they not his pawns, as he did not ask it directly to make Sargeras corruptd, i dare you to tell me a source that say the jailer asked nathrezim to corrupt sargeras.
You do, because we always go back to the paste, just look at bfa for example, you see the Zandalari which are aoround since 15k y, its just how warcraft is, you always go to ancients places.
Just like now you hear about Earthen, Arathi etc, and not to mention, the event that is always mentioned in every expacs : War of the Ancients and its consequences.
What is or is not inconsistency for many times is subject to debate, and so it is not even fair what you do, its just “i like so its fine”
Firstly, that shadowy figure was not in mop remix, so you are being wrong here.
Secondly, same shadowy figure was also a night elf, and a tauren, so why would you go and say “its an high elf”
3rd points : you know in pet battle dungeons you also had shadowy figures, people theorized about it a lot…ended up it was nothing special.
4th poin : you dont need to theorize who it is, its shadowy figure, deal with it.
No, you were serious, i am totally sure it was a genuin idea you got! You just realized how bad it was and now you want to brush it off.
The simple fact you still defend that Xal’atath was in remix is proof that you not ironic.
But yeah, the more i read you the more i feel like you are a kid.
And I’ve told you the reason why he’s the problem.
You’re able to count to three?
And yet, you continue to list raid bosses.
Arathi Highlands, Ashenvale, Badlands, Blasted Lands, Borean Tundra, Burning Steppes, Crystalsong Forest, Darkshore, Deadwind Pass, Desolace, Dragonblight, Drustvar, Dun Morogh, Durotar, Dustwallow Marsh, Duskwood, Eastern Plaguelands, Elwynn Forest, Eversong Woods, Feralas, Ghostlands, Grizzly Hills, Hillsbrad Foothills, Howling Fjord, Icecrown, Ironforge, Isle of Quel’Danas, Jade Forest, Krasarang Wilds, Kun-Lai Summit, Loch Modan, Moonglade, Mulgore, Nazmir, Redridge Mountains, Searing Gorge, Sholazar Basin, Silithus, Silverpine Forest, Stonetalon Mountains, Storm Peaks, Stranglethorn Vale, Swamp of Sorrows, Tanaris, Teldrassil, The Barrens, The Cape of Stranglethorn, The Hinterlands, Thousand Needles, Tirisfal Glades, Townlong Steppes, Twilight Highlands, Uldum, Un’Goro Crater, Vale of Eternal Blossoms, Valley of the Four Winds, Vol’dun, Nazmir, Zuldazar, Tiragarde Sound, Stormsong Valley, Western Plaguelands, Westfall, Wetlands, Winterspring, Zul’Drak.
→ 90% of the game.
Dragons in particular are a common trope in fantasy.
Cosmic doesn’t refer to this. It refers to cosmical forces, higher dimensions, ultimate beings, abstract concepts, etc.
Not bad by itself. But, as always, the dose makes the poison.
And Shadowlands was a harsh overdose.
- “Zovaal tried to claim the sigils of his fellow Eternal Ones, intending to use them to reach the Sepulcher in the First Ones’ realm of Zereth Mortis, whose secrets would allow him to unmake reality and replace it with one in which he would be the ruler of all of creation. He set his sights on the mortal world of Azeroth and intended to use the power of its world-soul in the rewriting of reality.”
- “Having forged them to be the ultimate infiltrators, Denathrius tasked the nathrezim with infiltrating the realms of the other cosmic forces as well as mortal worlds in the physical universe in order to spread the influence of Death”
- ‘Explaining of afterlife mechaniques’ in the zones
(scroll down for sources)
Chronicle is or was criticised for this as well.
It’s just that SL was worse.
Mal’Ganis: “You call me demon because that is what we wanted you to believe we were, a deception that took millennia to unfold. But in truth, the nathrezim were formed by the hand of Sire Denathrius of Revendreth, a true ally of the Jailer’s cause for longer than you can comprehend.”
One conclave of nathrezim settled on a world where several Old Gods, servants of the void lords, were in the process of corrupting a titan world-soul. They came to dwell among the Old Gods, basking in their dark power. When Sargeras discovered the planet, he captured and interrogated the nathrezim, and they revealed what they knew about the void lords: that they had sent the Old Gods into the cosmos in order to find and corrupt a world-soul and transform it into an unspeakably dark creature that not even the Pantheon could stand against
The nathrezim stoked Sargeras’ fear of the Void to blind him to their true purpose and the fact that they were secretly loyal not to him, but to Denathrius and the Jailer. When Sargeras raged at the time it took for slain demons to regenerate in the Nether, the nathrezim suggested that they could infuse Argus’ titan world-soul with Death magic in order to turn him into a resurrection engine that would allow the Legion’s armies to resurrect instantaneously. In truth, this scheme was a “gambit” by the Jailer: by infusing Argus with Death, the nathrezim ensured that, if he was killed, the titan’s soul would fire into the Shadowlands and incapacitate the Arbiter, the being responsible for judging mortal souls.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Nathrezim#The_Burning_Legion
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Argus_(titan)
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Zovaal#Reign_in_the_Maw
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Frostmourne#Origin
You can also fill these 15,000 years without changing the small amount of lore that has been established over time.
Quote the narrative error that I supposedly appreciate.
I’m refering to her:
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Shadowy_Figure_(Season_of_Discovery)
In MoP, I referred to the hooded supplier.
That wasn’t Xal herself, true.
“You don’t need to think” is not a smart statement.
Don’t judge others by yourself.
I’m totally sure it was a genuin idea Blizzard got, yes. You can tell by my phrasing:
I’d like to remind you that the overarching question was whether Metzen (or a writer in general) would change anything.
Sure, mate.
See you around.
Now you are just being dishonest, i told you that the problem of the shadowlands story was jailer not the realm itself, and you said its the realm itself storytelling of expac itself, but no its just jailer…
You are just not wanting to admit that the shadowlands as a realm is not considered an issue.
Well yes, i still counting raid bosses, why wouldnt i? Its part of Vanilla isnt it?
Nice goalpost thought, i dont even see what was the point of all this listing lol…
Basically you just here to say that “its on azeroth so its grounded” whhich is not what grounded means…
They are a common trope, but you dont fight them easily like you do in wow. Right from tbc you kill dragons like if they are nothing.
And it is a common trope in the fantasy mate, you just refuse it, go play some DnD and dare tell me that the Abyss, 9 hells, shadowfall etc are not part of the setting, heck you even have city of Sigil in dnd…
Warcraft always was an high fantasy cosmic story, i remind you that the orcs dont comes from Azeroth and are part of the lore since war1, so deal with it. Cosmic always was a thing.
Your problem.
Where is Zovaal here? Still it dont say that Nathrezim were asked to corrupt Sargeras…you are literally proving my point.
How so? You just decided that it was worse, but sorry but no, chronnicles v2 retconed the original timeline so hard that i wont give you right on this.
A quote that again prouves nothing of what you claimed, it dont say they told sargeras what they told because jailer said so.
So bascially they refused to tell him, but Sargeras slapped them so hard that they answered him? Weird manipulation no? Like, if they wanted to corrupt him, why they would not want to tell him right from start?
Thats where you are being just tyring to point evidences that are just not there.
Thats still the paste, and what they did with the Light being created by first ones was just filling a gap older than the origin of Light. dont see why its a problem.
Its not to me to quote that.
Yeah so any high elves models : Xal’atath!!! Thats a bit easy no?
Thoughts and theories are not the same, theories are bascially lazy way of blizz to get people like you thinking…
The thing is, they even do it on purpose, they throw you lil bits, and then they see you making dumb theories and they make fun of you…
Why do you let your intellignece be insulted like this?
And peoples were encouraging it, just like you, and i will shush every single person who give bad idease!
Yeah! Good day!