I don’t see why you think I’d have a problem with that.
In that case, do you think it was a good idea for Illidan to smart mouthing off at Velen and starting a conflict with an ally like that?
That’s how it came across.
Having a different “interpretation” from your interpretation doesn’t mean I didn’t play it. I have played it extensively; even picked up a few hidden artifact skins on my main and a couple of alts.
Utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Then you just did not pay any attention to what was going on with either Maiev or Illidan.
There’s different interpretations, and then there are factually incorrect assumptions based solely on one’s dislike for a character. Maiev at no point was forced to grit her teeth and let Illidan have his way. You’re simply assuming that must have happened based on your weird hang-ups with Illidan.
You make it seems as if Shadowlands was the only one to do Retcons and new lore that “inconsitent with previous world building” but any expac did that, and SOMETIMES its actually good, because you must not be a dam gatekeeper, you must accept that the previous world building have its flaws and was not that good and that new lore added make it more interesting.
Thats your biggest problem i think, you refuse to accept that retcons are 1 inevitable part of a story, because from the moment when you will add new in depth and detail to someting thats called retcon, even the Legion interview that you brought up, its new lore and its a retcon regarding the tbc one. A retcon is any addition to a lore, even if it dont contradict it.
Now about Shadowlands, i did not say i liked it, but Shadowlands as its good new lore and its bad one, mainly all around the Death realm entirely is good new lore imo, like the kyrians, the bastion, the maw etc etc the Shadowlands in its own realm was cool, and new. But when they started with the First Ones there you had bad lore yes imo.
Oh and, i also think the retcon about the Nathrezim was interesting, even if it was a bit “silly” because well, they look completly like demons but are not demons which make you wonder why does the fel give you the same atribute as them (horns, bat wings, hooves etc) if they are not demons >< but well, the draenei have the same issue and it was a retcon from tbc…
Thats just being delusional, Metzen is very bad when it comes to do something else than World Building, he even told it himself, thats why the rank of Lorewalker was made, or “archivist” of the lore, because Metzen need people to tell him if his new lore is consistent with what he want to add.
Metzen is exactly the kind of guy who will forget his details of what he created and will be inconsistent with it…
Danuser, is kind of the opposite, good at writing tiny stories but terrible at doing world building.
But overall, you are a bit delusional because : be it Metzen or Danuser, they are not THE peopple who decie it all, its a team thing.
The problem is, with what you say and that were again you are either very delusional or blind, is that, not always will you have a lore team member answering a lore quesiton in the interviews…are you even sure that the interviews you use as facts were answered by a lore team member?
Because its not the author telling it. And as i said again, there is many instances when they were wrong.
No its not, i just say that, when its not in game, its not what it is.
Now you ask an interesting question, and i will answer you it : Because Gods and such beings, divine beings are always and i mean ALWAYS Monolithic, naaru are monolithic, old gods are monolithic, jailer was monolithic, sargeras is also monolithic, they are UNIDIMENSIONAL because they are divine and gods and thus are alien to us.
However, when it comes down to characters such as mortals, they are more interesting.
I will say, just like the fel corruption was not a thing with DH, just like being a dam Undead, or a DK dosent cause the life around them to decay and die, because its what should happen.
In a way, yes its sad, that its not mentioned and not explained, but its how it always was sadly.
SL wasn’t the only one. It was the worst, however.
According to my observations, the vast majority of players share the same sentiment.
Your claim that SL’s worldbuilding is superior to the previous stuff is… uh…interesting.
I’m assuming you have the zones in mind. They’re not bad, but they’re also not Warcraft. At least in my opinion. The only link are the cameos.
Why my opinion qualifies me as a gatekeeper is not entirely clear to me.
I’ve had extensive discussions in other threads about the distinction between retcons and expansions. I still believe that a retcon is a retroactive change that ignores or rewrites previously written lore, whereas an expansion fills a previously empty and possibly only implied field. As a result, I would disagree with your claim that every expansion wthout contradiction is a retcon. If it is, only to such a small extent that it’s insignificant.
Regarding the Retcons themselves - despite being named after a Sith, I don’t deal in absolutes.
There are retcons that fix inconsistencies. I think those are justified. They’re rare, though.
Then there are retcons that create inconsistencies. Inconsistent stories aren’t more interesting; they’re full of errors. They don’t add depth and detail, the add condractions and a bunch of nonsense. That’s surely not ‘more interesting’. And of course, it completely devalues the time and money spent on previous sources.
Not always, but most of the time, they occur because a new writer is either too lazy to read up on the old lore, believes he can do it better than the original author, or draws inspiration from some bad anime. A bitter taste for a fan.
Lore isn’t good when it’s new. It’s good when it’s good.
Well, I am not sure what is delusional about that. Danuser has overturned and reinterpreted Metzens Lore; why can’t it be the other way around?
And it’s a team thing, yes. But assuming that the boss has the final say is not too farfetched. Metzen himself said that he used to set the tone a lot back in the day.
The ‘Lore Team’ doesn’t write stories. They’re some kind of historians, as you mentioned above. But yes. The interview was conducted with those devs who created the stories and questlines on Argus.
This point of view would equate a player’s opinion with an author’s opinion in canon discussions about the world or characters, though. ‘Blizzard’s lore posts’ have always served as a reliable source for the fanbase. They are also recognised on WarcraftWiki.
I kinda said the same thing above, just in different words
We’ll agree here?
Cuz Metzen rolled with the idea of the First Ones already and didn’t try to remove the mentions of them in Dragonflight.
Wrong. It’s very relevant since he’s the other person in the conversation and the one who started it.
Think that if you want.
Except Maiev didn’t trust or want him there. It was clear from their dialogue. If you’re going to make assumptions and accusations about me, I can return fire if you want, but I’m trying to be fair with you.
I hate this fallacious arguement, its not because majority of people vote x that X is instantly true. I think you are smarter than this.
And i dont even say this to defend or else SL, its just i find this arguement pretty weak, and used too much.
Did i ever said that? i never used the word “superior” and i did not even say it was better to anything previously made, because regarding the Shadowlands : there was literally nothing about it prrior to the SL expansions so there was nothing to be seuprior to.
Oh really?
Bastion and its Valkyr angels not Warcraft? (angels were mentioned in war2) Maldraxxus and its Undead not warcraft? Ardenweald and its faune not warcraft? Revendreth and its VAMPIRE not Warcraft? I just find this “its not warcraft” answer silly…and you are right to put it with “at least to you” because yeah, its warcraft, it takes elemens from warcraft, you just refuse to accept that warcraft can also be this.
Because you are refusing the see how hard the devs actually want to even try to please you by giving you massive call back to warcraft originals and you are just like “its new so it sucks”
And you know what? SL in its worldbuilding actually dont contradicts old lore, because the zones, they dont contradict what we knew before, and EVEN THE FRIST ONES dont even contradicts old lore…
Again, lets use the dictionnary and see the definition of the words Retcon : “(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.”
Here there is nothing that say that it contradict old informations, it says that it gives a different interpretation of it.
Examples : Vashj is an elf - Vashj is an elf that became a naga = retcon.
You just deem them needed because you decide what are the inconsistencies…
Yet there is a ton of writers which retcons their own lore…Metzen for example
Because its not METZEN’s lore, that where you are wrong. Its the lore of a massive amount of different people, look at all the people credited for the Chronnicles.
He dont do it anymore, and do you really think that people gives their “ok” for every single quests?
And so the devs who created the story of Argus also wrote Chronnicles? No. And also, the lore team is not just historians, they are the lore team, they are writers.
They are in the trivia section in warcraftwiki, which means they are not fully recognized as the “word of God” and also, interviews should not be required to understand whats in game.
But yeah, you just want to cherry pick what you like in interview that all.
Also, you talking about Metzen, the guy who literally said : “In The Last Titan, you are going to uncover a great conspiracy that will challenge everything you know about the titans!”
Which to me, smells like ; I am gonna retcon the lore of the titans a looot so much that you will feel challenged in what you think you knew!!! (old lore)
And also, you forget one important thing : New or past writers, will NEVER, and when i say ENEVER, i mean NEVER, undo what was done, if Danuser created the first ones, Metzen will not come and be like 'Fist Ones dont exist!!!"
Writers at blizzard never crticize their fellow writers, thats the thing!
No, it’s actually totally irrelevant. Illidan being Illidan has nothing to do with whether or not Velen acted “dumbed down”.
You know this. You just want to redirect the conversation to Illidan and how much you dislike him.
Being forced to work with someone, who in turn is also forced to work with you, is not “letting someone have their way”.
You know this. You are not stupid. But you are reaching, and I think you know this.
By all means, go right ahead.
Heeeee!!! Alynsa! Just wanted to say ; You great! 
I am totally supportive!
It does since - regardless of who’s right or wrong - Illidan was the one who engaged Velen and who Velen would be responding to.
You denying that is just going in circles.
Wrong. If I wanted to do that, I could - and would - just make another anti-Illidan thread.
It is, even if partially, when going along with it.
You are not stupid, I think you’re just desperate to shut me down - tip, ignoring facts or digging in your heels doesn’t work on me (while you haven’t done this, insults don’t either).
I’m working on being fairer with accusations and dropping personal attacks (something I think certain others on the forum should try).
Now to try and get things back on topic, I think the whole Light-using antagonists angle can work without making the Light itself villainous (as per OP’s point). Velen should 100% be a rallying figure for the good guys in a good vs evil conflict involving Light users. Light users we’re expected to clash with can be done well or done badly, the issue is consistency and development. What Blizzard did with the Scarlet Crusade was a well-done descent to villainy. What Blizzard did with Xe’ra was a stupid and edgelord rug pull.
But this was never about who is right or wrong, even if you’re trying to turn it into exactly that. It’s about whether or not Velen was being “dumbed down” by not acting out of character.
No Thad, I’m not going to engage in your attempts to shift goalposts, just so you can complain about Illidan. You do that anyway, you don’t need to change this conversation to that.
No, it really isn’t. This is plain reaching, and I’m not going to entertain it further.
If I wanted to shut you down, I wouldn’t engage with you in honest discourse. I have. You made an accusation (Velen and Turalyon were “dumbed down” to make Illidan look better), I challanged it, you offered your “evidence”, I debunked it by pointing out hoiw out of character it would be for Velen to be as petty as you suggested. You never offered any further evidence of your claim, and instead tried to redirect the conversation to whether or not Illidan should have behaved like Velen… Because you cannot resist trying to turn things back to “Illidan is bad yop” even when nobody is even disputing it.
There is nothing there trying to shut you down. The closest you can claim is I will not shift goalposts with you. Stop lying. You know by now I won’t fall for it.
I was also talking about who’s right or wrong in the sense of our discussion about Velen, not the moral sense.
No goalpost-moving there (see above for why), but I understand why you thought that (I should’ve worded it better).
If you want to think that, you do you.
Except, even if you were right about Velen, you haven’t addressed Turalyon. And I already said what I’d do if I wanted to go the “Illidan sucks thread” route.
Wasn’t a lie, but I guess your feelings won’t let you see that.
Now I’m the one trying to get the thread back on topic.
That thread expended its life waaaaayy too much, we aleady answered the guy point since a long time now…
Why nobody is on a rempage because Life is being shown as the bad guy by the way?
Omg you still at war!! And you did not even react to my kind words!
Uh, no, you shifted it to that after I pointed out how inappropriate of a time it would be for Velen to suddenly try and bicker with Illidan.
Why would you lie about this, Thad? We can just scroll up, you know.
Because you never gave an example of Turalyon being dumbed down. If you won’t point to an example, how can I address it?
Then show me where I’m trying to shut you down. You made the accusation, now back it up please. Or just don’t lie further.
I mean, grats? You literally wanted to have this derailment. Now you don’t? You could just say “I don’t want to talk about this anymore.”
I am the war!!
Alynsa, the Mocha War Elf.
I did so, I gave it a like!!
I think its a well deserved title! Keep it up!
Haaaa!!! I did not check the notifs!!! I am happy you appreciated!
That’s alright. Took me awhile to reply to you too; life does get in the way sometimes.
Great minds think alike.
You’ve got a point there. I do like Velen and hope his story goes well going forward.
Suppose it depends which part, if you mean Light worship (I could be misunderstanding you). The Alliance’s Church of the Holy Light is fine. As are other groups like the Argent Crusade and Sunwalkers or even the Army of the Light. Only antagonistic Light factions so far are the Scarlet Crusade, Lightbound and Priory using undead in Hallowfall.
Which is odd, as there are plenty of Light worshippers aside from humans and Draenei.
I can admit Xe’ra was hardliner, judgmental, maybe even ruthless, but preachy? That said, if she had to be removed from the story, I think a one-hit kill by Illidan at that time and place was not the way to go.
True that, brother. Perhaps I came on too strong initially. I was too used to that being used as a snarl word, if not an anti-Christian slur.
I explained it was poor choice of words. If you want to keep assuming the worst of me no matter what, that’s on you.
I can, but I’d rather save it for another thread.
Trying to by arguing against me and continuing to engage.
You could’ve chosen to not get involved… but you chose to involve yourself.
You literally brought it up in this thread!! And then tried to call me out on not responding to something you never gave me a chance to respond to!!
What the what??
Thad, if you think engaging with you in an argument you created is somehow trying to shut you down?
Then I honestly have no idea what anyone could ever say to you.
Your entire shift in argument seems to be that you’re upset someone engaged in a discussion with you, and you’re not okay with that.
I’ll just leave you alone now, until this mood has passed you by.
You were right about the thread going off-topic. I am not entirely convinced about Velen, though I see what you’re getting at with him. Will save examples with Turalyon and Khadgar for another time.
Figured after some self-reflection that I derailed too many threads. I didn’t say engaging itself was the attempt to shutdown - engaging by grasping at straws, going into denial and repeating past points seems to be.
Right back at you. When people assume the worst no matter what I say - as some on the forums have done to me - don’t see much reason to care what I say.
Its not even a discussion!!!
Thad is just not gonna want to let go, he thinks that x or y character is bad, and that a char he like is cool but got wasted so he will make everyone know how upset he is!
Bit rich to say that when your comment is making everyone know how upset you are about me. But those kind of comments goes against forum ToS, so I won’t go further. Whine about me more if you want (at least my rant was related to in-universe WoW stuff).