Because that isn’t what you’re actually talking about. You’re complaining that Velen, spiritual and peaceful Velen, isn’t having some weirdboy tit-for-tat with Illidan in a game of guilt oneupsmanship.
“You abandoned all your people on your homeworld!”
“Oh yeah?? Well, you ran off too!!! It’s like you’re called the Betrayer or something.”
That’s not Velen. That has never been Velen. And by Velen not behaving out of character for him, you’re somehow equating that “dumbing him down”.
… Except when you used that as your example of a character being dumbed down, you apparently meant… Khadgar, who isn’t even part of that scene, or part of the duo you even mentioned of Turalyon and Velen??
What the hell Thad. I get you have a hate-crush on Illidan, but it’s starting to really rot your brain here.
Which is really odd since his girl-crush Xe’ra is Illidan’s only fan outside of his demon hunter cult. Not even Tyrande or Malfurion would give more than a short shrift to Illidan’s farewell letter.
While I agree that “tit-for-tat” isn’t Velen’s style, it is possible to call someone out without it being mere one-upmanship. Plus, Illidan’s criticism was invalid, even without the hypocrisy.
I said “dumbed down” that he didn’t call out Illidan’s hypocrisy. Not to mention I did refer to Khadgar in that comment, if not the same sentence did I not?
So what? What does that have to do with anything at all regarding Velen being “dumbed down”?
You referred to Khadgar as someone used to prop up Illidan (citing him and Xe’ra), not as one who was “dumbed down” (citing Velen and Turalyon). I’m not even going to waste my time arguing that with you, because I don’t see it going anywhere meaningful. Characters coexisting within the plot doesn’t make them “props” to one another, but I doubt you’ll see it that way when it comes to Illidan. Not given how this conversation has already been going.
For one, Velen didn’t do a better job of explaining things to Illidan like saying “I was looking after mostly non-combatants.” when Illidan had the gall to accuse Velen of cowardice.
Velen’s much older than Illidan and has some experience with motivating people and conflict resolution. But that scene is all set up for Illidan to strut around acting like he’s got any high ground while Velen’s reduced to basic platitudes.
I didn’t say this about every character Illidan interacted with in Legion, just some like those three. I know they didn’t do that with Malfurion and Tyrande - on that note, Tyrande knew Illidan had feelings for her long before that final letter in Legion (a line from WC3 comes to mind), that was just the time Illidan finally got over it.
Now to get more back on topic, I hope they keep Velen’s story consistent going forward, especially with that new Draenei city they’re planning to build in Azuremyst. There is fodder for character development and drama with both Lightforged Draenei from the Army of the Light AND Man’ari eredar in the same city.
Someone didn’t play the draenei heritage quest line. The entire point of the Tishimaat and the new city is for all Eredar to be reunited. Conflict that we all know will never go anywhere is pointless.
And besides, it be nice for them to catch a break and actually have a peaceful existance for once
While I agree with you on this, I don’t think Blizzard will leave them to peacefully coexist at Tishimaat. I did play the questline, though, and liked it.
The Man’ari that are playable will get along just fine with everyone else. Because the game demands it anyway.
Edit: My point is that I’m tired of pointless and baseless conflict for the sake of conflict that 1) Will never go anywhere meaningful and 2) The game will ignore because both are playable and that limits what you can in that regard
Even in the future, Lightforged and Man’ari will be at peace and enjoying rainbows.
That was already the case with the Heritage questline
and it was unbearable.
sincerely sorry it took me an eternity and a half to reply but i will just say, i definitely agree with you, illidan was p overrated and especially as a hero. i didn’t hate him as a villain for bc (by which i mean i thought it kinda made sense for him as a pariah to manufacture his own hellscape as some kind of pathological creativity, i thought that angle was cool). but they really didn’t make it make a ton of sense and so he basically was just… kinda edgy and annoying most of the time. frankly i much prefer velen as an exemplar of a decent person guided by faith and a gentle nature than i do illidan as a critic of religion. that said, it would be admittedly nice if the religion he was criticizing wasn’t so ripe for it; xe’ra was preachy and i cannot emphasize enough how quickly i wanted her entirely removed from my field of view so i might be a bit biased towards her demise anyhow
and re: christofascist: frankly as a person of the faith who finds the co-opting of christ into hateful ideologies, especially in america where i live, to be such a strong pollutant on the soul of the world, i want to make sure those instances are identified specifically to differentiate a fascist from an actual disciple of jesus.
while i agree, i am still slightly hopeful the penitents will prove to be worthwhile characters in some regard long-term for the race. a reunified eredar race could be a real force to be reckoned with. it’s just unfortunate that the writing team isn’t one we can trust to gradually improve ideas over time lol
The paragraph you dismissed explained why I considered Velen dumbed down in that cinematic.
His only interactions with Maiev I remember from Legion were snarky exchanges in one dungeon. Maiev may not have been dumbed down, but that entire situation was her being forced to grit her teeth and let Illidan have his way.
Right, and you know what the first go-to tactic to avoid conflict is?
Avoidance. Which is exactly what Velen did. And is the entire heart ofyour issue with Velen.
Because he didn’t get into some kind of dispute with Illidan enroute to the Legion’s stronghold, you feel he’s been “dumbed down” because that, in your mind, is exactly the time when Velen should be having some kind of tit-for-tat with Illidan. That’s exactly when you feel a non-dumb character should be all “well, Mister Illidan, I’ll have you know…”
And that’s why you in essence want Velen to behave out of character, just so you cen feel some strange appeasement.
Literally your “dumbing down” is Velen not acting dumb.
Well, just like you do, you also speculate, since we dont exactly know for sure.
You even said it in a previous post, i may be right or wrong. But, one thing is certain : if we ever get a clear answer, it will be new lore, and thus, will you blame new lore if it dont gives you right? Or will you cheer it if it gives you right? Like “omg i hate new lore” but instantly if it goes in your sense “ho thats logical!”
I mean, you know, if i had to make a list of all the wrong devs said in interview i would have a long list too…because what devs says is less important than what game says.
I dont get why Metzen being in chage now will instantly change the things, as you know Metzen is responsible for the Draenei retcon in tbc which was a big change in how the eredar were depiected originally.
Tell me anything, ANY statement, that, what is said in an interview is therefore canon. Because as i explaiend above, they said a LOT of bull in interviews, like a lot.
And on that we can agree, in my opinion, i find character with reasons and depth for why they are “evil” to be more interesring.
Sarcasm is a dificult thing for some to get, its why, while i use it often, i make it obvious for my interlocutor that i use it.
You are right on that part, but the thing is, we dont actually know if he would have struck back, yes he fled Kil’jaeden when he went to OT, but he dont say if this is permanent, or if he will eventually strike back at him etc…its a “up in the air thing” back in war3. It was in TBC then Legion it was more said.
You make me want to point out something there, regarding war3 and Illidan : In the war3 Manual, it was stated that, Kil’jaeden when he came to illidan to ask him to destroy the Lich King, promissed Illidan that if he succeded he would have his place among the remaining leaders of the Burning Legion (because if you put things in contexte, back in war3 demons did not res, and thus you had not many leader left after Battle of Mount Hyjal) and this means, that Illidan intended to be a lord of the Burning Legion at the point, and as he do say himself in war3 again “Only power matter for me”.
Its why the “ho but in truth he was a good guy who infiltrated the legion” that they came up in legion, to me was a big retcon regarding what he want and his actions in war3.
Ho they would have found a way, they managed to get another ship when the Genedar was busted up!
I think that, the man’ari quest line when they got added as customization was very good, because, it never actually try to really whitewash the follower of Arzal, or Arzal himself, because, they never hide the fact that they must pay for their crimes, and that they are bad people and did bad things.
Thats lot better than most cases when the bad things are just not mentioned.
Also it was a thing since Legion that not all demons are “doing evil willingly” that they are forced by the Legion.
I’ll accept it as Canon.
And, as always, I’ll blame it on inconsistency, regardless of the outcome.
Aside from that, I don’t despise new lore simply because it disagrees with me. I dislike it when it is inconsistent with the previous worldbuilding.
You aren’t going to tell me you actually liked Shadowlands, are you?
You don’t need to make a list. Three examples are enough.
I assume Danuser’s and his ideas are very different.
He’s the boss, so he decides how the story progresses.
It’s obvious that those who wrote the story are best suited to comment on it. Why interpret what the author intended to say when the author himself tells you directly?
You want to know the character better than the creator? Seriously? Is this your argument?
So, why would you want one-dimensional Naaru who all follow the Xe’ra pattern over different individuals with different motivations?
My issue with it is that it ignores the lore on Fel Corruption and that the Draenei are not hostile enough to (wilful) Worldkillers.
