lol yeah it seems like a meme around here how often you bring that up.
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Didn’t know you’ve seen them already, but maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
I’ll admit I do that a bit much 
. Doesn’t make my reasons wrong, though.
Maybe they weren’t going for a villain as much as conflict. I never said that X’era was a straight up bad guy… or crystal. I merely said that she was wrong and she put herself against someone as stubborn as she was who came out on top of their deadly tug of war game.
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maybe we can agree to disagree on that. i also don’t think “christofascist” is actually some slur against christians, but we probably differ there, too.
Correct. They’re manifestations of order, but they aren’t order itself. Order and arcane remain raw power, magic, some mindless force, whatever
I don’t. My source for this is your source.
That’s not what it says. It says they can’t spare any troops. A’dal does it voluntarily. Please read your own source / my quotes of your post.
And A’dal is still fighting Illidan in Chronicle 3, despite Xe’ra existing.
Not all naaru necessarily have the same motives, and they have their own personalities and own goals, with Xe’ra, who was notably different from other naaru players have met, being the best example of this. As such, not all naaru are necessarily good from the player’s perspective, for while Xe’ra believed that she was indeed doing good, that good was not necessarily good for everyone.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Naaru
This point stands.
No. It’s all still the same and in line with TBC.
The quoted part of Rise of the Horde was also not rewritten.
If a redefinition began anywhere, it was with SL.
Dictionaries list synonyms based on common usage, not precise equivalence. Indoctrination and brainwashing share similarities, but their meanings differ in intensity and method. Language is nuanced and context matters. Google some examples and you’ll see the difference.
But it doesn’t matter: you were referring to mind control, weren’t you? So we can call it that to be crystal.
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Thats right, but it is then waved around by people with “a mind” to pretend that the Light is “good” and other “bad”
But, if you turn the table around and be on the pov of a undead, Light is bad and death is good.
So bascially you mad the big Light fanatical plygone got blown up?
You mean that very brainwashing system when you are barely allowed to have individual thoughts and you are bascially the underling of another person who is bascially the underling of another who itself is the underling of another, but your superior (who is also an underling) will always treat like trash because its mad at also being an underling? Yes thats what army is.
Yes, Xe’ra wanted to harm her, even maybe (likely) kill her, and Turalyon pledged to her cause, but for how long would he have?
And thats where you are being manipulated, because, its why army is bad, because an army dont need emotions, and its why it is a very strict and “wrong” thing, because they want soldiers, machin, and thats what the Light want. And thats why its wrong.
I hate Sylvanas, i consider her a hypocrtic who refuse to face her responsabilities and put the wrong on others when she is at fault. Xe’ra was just stupid and delusional for such a high being.
They are its personifcations, when will you understand that a Force even if mindless in origin when given form is still that force?
Its how it is in all mythos, its like you told me “Ho but, Poseidon is not water, since water is mindless thing” dude, back then, they did not say water was mindless they said it was Poseidon who did stuff when water did said stuff.
So yeah, you keep making a difference between the Force and its manifestation, and thats were you dont get the thing. Manifestation of the Force are BY NATURE DRAWN to do what said Force want, just like when Aggramar could not resist ordering Draenor, it was agaisnt his will, in his very being, you cant just brush it off saying “ho but no its not the Force!” yes its the Force!!
Then i already adressed that : Army of Light send them.
Again, they did not go agaisnt her oroders, you make it seems as if they went rogues or something…
Thats called an inconsistency my friend…
Still leading the Army of the Lught and still thoses Naaru from tbc were of the Army of the Light. So they were under her orodres and had the same goals, if not they would not join that army.
Well, no its not in line with it, then why A’dal attacked Illidan if Xe’ra did not want to? Then tell me, why A’dal thought the chosen one of the Light? Go on.
No, i was refering to making people beleive they are doing good for some kind of morality and “defending Life”
And thats what i find ironic, that an Undead player defend the Light, you know that in a cosmos ruled by the Light, you would not even exist anymore? Because you are not allowed by that Force to even exist.
And thats the point i NOW try to expres, because you try so hard so defend the Force itself, by trying to say “its mindless! therefore its ok!” but the Force, even if “mindless” have its “own agenda” because by essence, it refuses the existence of Void users, Demons, and Undead.
And now we are entering the field of “pov” we as human beings in our real life context, we will say that the Light is good because it heals and all! BUT lets think in a matter of the universe of Warcraft, there is not just “living beings” there are demons, undead, other creatures that are not in the field of “living” and for these beings, Light is well, quite bad, because it even harm them!!!
And thats were we go to answer to :
Yes you, the Light propagandist we can answer you, i can answer you, in the name of all demons, and as a demon myself : I agree that the Light is a “bad guys” because well, screw the Light, give me my fel paradies already!
You have examples of Undead Pirests of the Light so no, we cant say all Undead think its bad.
I get where you are coming from with the POV thing, however (unfortunately) characters who think the Light is good or evil in the agency sense are just objectively wrong. It can only be characterized by its use.
To reiterate my point, this is why I think its fine for players to use Light as a stand in for some higher power moral guide because that does not exsist in WoW even though its characters act like it does.
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I agree to a degree…
I don’t care if people want to pretend the Light is Christianity in their own fanfiction head canon RP
If people want to pretend Anduin is a cosmic genderless being that birthed Azeroth from their big toe… in their own fanfiction head canon RP… what ever.
However, I would suggest those sorts of things belong in the fanfiction section, not in the lore section. It is when people pretend their head canon is actual canon, that I would say - no, they are incorrect. The Light is not a stand in for Christianity in the narrative.
If people want it to be, that is fine, but they should express that it is their desire and not the actual story.
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Where is the disagreeing part?
Edit: Oh you said degree not disagree. I just woke up and read “agree to disagree” lol
Not that I disagree, I said I agree to a degree. There are degrees where it becomes quite off the wall.
Like Thaddeus claiming Xera was created and killed off as some anti Christian conspiracy by godless devs pushing an agenda…. or that people who enjoyed Xera being killed hate Christians…
Those are degrees in which someone is projecting more onto the franchise’s Light than is in the story.
True! but I dont think hes claiming that either, in his own words:
I dono about HATEING Christians, but I have seen the people Thadeus mention get some things pretty wrong about them in the past which as someone who studies this topic IRL I could not help myself to step in and correct. 
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You have ONE undead of the Light and its Calia…and her case is unique and rather qestuonnable. For 99.99% of Undead, the Light is bad, and yes, if you use Light as an undead and you not Calia, the Light do hurt you.
But the point of the thread is people dont accepting that it can be considerer “bad” which is why we are even keeping on the topic even if everyone already agree that its neither…
Even if, Naaru can be bad, and can do wrong, and they are personification of the Light.
But there is no such thing, these players are wrong to think that.
Or even better : It can stay in their heads.
On that particular topic ; I am Christian, and i did not give a dam about Xe’ra being blown up, i did not see it as an anti Christian thing, it was mainly to break the neck of something else which was : the chosen one poor writing. In my eyes, this was more to break the neck of that dumb chosen one trope in stories than to be anti Christian.
Because its what Illidan says. Now if some people think Christianity is about a chosen one…theeeeen they must recheck what Christianity is about.
This is just not correct, Sir Zelik, Alonsus Faol and Arathi NPCs in the new dungeon are other examples.
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Sir Zeliek was never explained beyound that “he is speical!” Faol is not an undead of the Light.
As for arathi ones : not epxlained either.
This is also just not true:
“When Nathanos Blightcaller reproached Alonsus for fraternizing with the Alliance High King, Faol claimed he was politically neutral as he was not a member of the Horde, but a simple priest of the Light.”
“The Archbishop then offered to teach Calia how to be an undead walking in the Light to better serve her people, which she agreed to.”
Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Alonsus_Faol
" He was a paladin in life, so strong in his faith, that even in undeath the power of the Light still heeded his call, smiting his foes in battle."
Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sir_Zeliek
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You’re talking about two different things. Calia is (as far as we know) the only undead created by the Light, but she is far from the only undead who follows/uses the Light.
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Undead that use the Light, as a priest, does not mean that he is an undead “of the Light” like Calia, Undead can use the Light, it was said since Vanilla, but it was also said that it caused them pain.
You are confusing concepts of an undead priest using the Light (which is foal is) and “an undead of the Light” which is what Calia is, but not Faol.
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Ah I see now, my bad I thought you meant Undead could not use the Light.
(The way my phone shows text on this site has been messing me up today…it makes the words narrow and cuts things in half for some reason. Why I misread Cursewords post)
It might be against Christians who are Fascists, and ask an Italian or German sometime how that IS a thing. and I’ll shovel a truck full of slurs against Facists of any stripe, be they Protestant, Catholic, or Atheist.
In D20 Calia would be considered an undead animated with positive energy which is what I see the Light as being. Its natural effect is to heal the living but if you travel to the plane where it emanates from without protection, it fills you up with so much energy that you explode.
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