Yeah I agree with you then.
Yes sorry itâs hard to explain it properly. The main issue seems to be that everyone focuses on the timer as though thatâs the only part, when the timer is intended to be a bonus for beating it. So you remove the associated âfailureâ for not meeting the timer (your key stays the same, doesnât go down) and all of a sudden with that minor change you set the timer as a bonus and not a penalty.
Beat it if you can and you get something extra, but if you donât beat it you donât feel like you were set back or âlostâ
Saying that timers is the only way to make dungeons difficult is like saying that bullet sponge bosses is the only way to make bosses hard.
That isnât true at all, itâs just lazy.
unless they make the mobs in m+ dungeons non-hard-ccâable, it is.
otherwise, groups of less competent players will just crawl through, ccâing every mob and killing one thing at a time, removing a huge part of what makes the dungeon difficult.
there is nothing difficult about âtrap square, sap moon, sheep triangle, kill skullâ
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I mean it is failing. But even if you fail you still get rewarded. There also the issue of I may want to have another key to I just do the key even if I fail the timer to get another less annoying key to do for the week.
No but having timer gives you a sense of urgency which will make you think of the best way to do a run. Thatâs why preplan route exist. Having a dungeon with no timer isnât what I call a hard dungeon. Just tedious.
Maybe. The main goal is to eliminate the attitude that goes along with it, since thatâs the major issue people have (even though they say its the timer). Since the timer is meant to be a bonus for completing it.
It takes hours, so balance the rewards on that (and remove the weekly chest, or make it tied to more runs, or whatever).
There are many, many ways - but this one is working well enough, is esport-friendly, and WoW isnât their big earner anymore.
the timer is a way that you can upgrade your key. Is it a bonus? Yea maybe. The problem isnât the timer or the difficulty. The issue is people want max reward even if they obviously arenât ready for it. How hard is it really to learn the game, get better then start reaping the reward, Instead of the instant gratification that alot of people seems to think they deserve because they pay $15 a month
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The timer in a m+ is the goal though, unless you specifically tell a group before starting/while setting up, most groups go in wanting to beat that timer. Not achieving that goal is the definition of failing.
If someone is responsible for said failure letting them know so they can improve for next time is good for the game. In my experience itâs generally only one or two people in a group who will rage when failing at a dungeon. Either ignore them or stop expecting everyone you meet to sugar coat things. Not everyone is going to be using your definition of being pc.
These two things arenât the same at all. Bosses with a lot of hp are rarely every hard, a bosses mechanics and timers are what make difficult bosses difficult.
No, they are annoying (unless mechanics get in they way), and players rightfully complain about it. Itâs lazy - thatâs why I mentioned it.
Yea I often run with a dh tank, mage rogue hunter and myself.
I could root a melee mob forever
Sheep forever
In cap for ever
Trap forever
Sap
Blind
Then pull a 7 pack one mob at a time. That doesnât deserve a good reward its horrible gameplay. That is what people asking for no timer as asking for whether they realise it or not.
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I think your logic is flawed for a couple of reasons iâll get to. But first, a couple of questions. Does the dungeon on the key change if they complete it over time? E.g they have a +20 Shrine, and take 2hrs to complete it, do they keep a +20 Shrine or does it change to a different +20?
Ok, you talked about peoples perception of winning or failing and this is what drives leaving. The fact is, this simply isnât true. If people are in the run for score, and itâs not going to be timed, they will leave. This is pretty much the only reason people leave a +15 or higher.
Thereâs no other reason to be there, loot caps out at +14, achieves cap out at +15 and unless someone wants a painful +15 for their weekly - theyâre their for score and score alone.
Echoes change that slightly, but itâs still faster to leave and go smash 15âs with good groups rather than deal with untimed runs. Lastly, thereâs sometimes just bored people who canât find a run that gives them score, and just want to play. I do tons of runs like this now, just to play and get echoes. I still leave 99% of the bad ones though.
None of this changes the fact that if it aint gunna be timed, none of those categories of people want to be there. Iâll occasionally help a bad group struggle through, but itâs totally not worth it. You rarely get thanked, even when carrying hard, and thereâs no other reason to do it.
Your idea of a solution doesnât address the problem you think exists. Because even if they removed the timer completely, score would still be driven by times. You know how much a slow run is worth at any key lvl? Not much! And even if it was, theyâd simply tweak the system so it was worth way less, to keep IO a relevant tool for picking groups.
Yes, these were TBC heroics, and we loved them. They required coordination, and if someone made a mistake on cc you wiped. I get that you like something different, but mocking the gameplay that built this game just makes you look foolish.
This isnât dark souls. It isnât diablo. Itâs an RPG. Not a race. Again, cool that you like it, but your description of bad game play also applies to mythic raiding.
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I think they should leave them in their current form for people who like to run them but change reward structure for other activities so people who donât like them donât feel obligated to run them.
And yet when operation mechagon came out in 8.2 and was more along these lines the forums were so flooded with âomg over tuned blizz nerf or I quitâ threads that it was nerfed in a hotfix within the week. Didnât even make it to reset.
I actually did really enjoy it and was sad to see it nerfed. I like both forms of gameplay as variety but do not think we should drastically change m+
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I have been playing a dungeon crawler the last week or so and been having a freaking blast. But the one thing that would have completely ruined the fun would have been a timer. I would spend all the time I needed to explore every square inch, if I could not have done that I would have stopped playing a hour in.
And I have a feeling torments are going to act like a passive timers and completely ruin it. Time will tell.
I have no doubt that people exist who enjoy that (I am one of them) and some who would even prefer that.
See my above post about the wow player base though the last time a dungeon like that was added which was only 2 patches ago.
You just triggered my PTSD from 2 hour shadow labyrinth runs with everything ccâed.
While they are at it, they can lower the damage and HP of mythic bosses.
And they can AoE trash all yellow.
And they can add a vendor for mats to keep the AH prices stable.
âŚ
MYTHIC+ dungeons arenât meant to be a casual, explorative stroll. The entire instance is one encounter. No one ever asks for extra time on Vexiona to be able to go see whatâs in the corners of the room or try to screen shot the squids in the distance. Itâs an ACLU yet, you play it like one.
What youâre asking for already exists. Heroic dungeons. They are queable, âleaversâ have limited impact on the experience, and they arenât timed!
Iâm so glad you brought up Mechagon. I was one of the people who flounced in 8.2 hair flips, and I did after seeing this dungeon.
Mechagon is the twisted monkeyâs paw version of what we asked for. If you AFK for bio you risk being bombed from above. Every boss fight involves a half dozen mechanics, and most of those mechanics take away control from your character. The fights are hectic, and the APM far, far higher than say classic or TBC.
In those dungeons we managed resources and cooldowns. Each person had 1-3 responsibilities. Maybe your hunter pulled, and trap-kited one of the mobs. The mage sheeped, decursed, and slowed mob packs if needed. Both had a mana supply to track, and if they went to ham would run dry mid fight.
In Mechagon my prot pally never ran out of mana. I survived every pull. But every pull was exhausting, and by the slime boss I was like, really? Please keep in mind that I loved Karazahn back in legion. That 5 man was brilliant, while also being hard AF.
Mechagon was hard, and tedious. And the best part? The gear it awarded was subpar to what you could get from warfronts or emissaries. I went in with a group of 410-ish people, and not one person got a useable upgrade.
When you cleared hard new content in TBC bosses dropped items that were actual upgrades, which rewarded us for the time invested. Mechagon divorced loot from the experience. Is it any wonder the forums were loud in their hatred?