I am concerned with how Blizzard addresses redemption from attempted (or completed) genocide

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Yeah, could it have been better? Sure.

Did the quest do what it was intended to do? Absolutely , it did exactly what it was designed to do and I’m fine with the quest as it is

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

At the very least, I suppose the man’ari establish a new baseline for bringing people into the factions, making Sylvanas’s return to the horde no longer the worst thing that could happen.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Kohnila-bonechewer

Bro, Alliance players and their weird revenge fantasies and obsession with in-universe penance… So weird

It’s very weird. But in a weird way, that you kind of come to expect it to happen. Even if some of their fantasies are really out there in scope

[Lena-proudmoore (Lena)]

If the only thing it was intended to do was make man’ari a player customization then sure. It did what it was intended to do.

Failed at just about everything else though.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

That’s again, just your sole opinion on the matter

[Akiril-bladefist]

The bar for forgiveness is not galactic genocide.

Even Putress, if he survived and was super sorry, could be welcomed back now. Just make sure to apologize to Velen instead of anyone else because the Horde would, rightfully, bury and axe between his eyes.

[Lena-proudmoore (Lena)]

Yeah, how dare people not like genocidal monsters. It’s so weird. Everyone loves genocidal monsters.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Your character is a literal genocidal murder hobo. Who wipes out entire villages for a few copper and a useless trinket

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Sad thing is that as far as the game goes, Sylvanas probably has better extenuating circumstances for what she did (relatively speaking) than the horde itself. That’s how badly the faction premise has been ruined.

[Lena-proudmoore (Lena)]

Inability to separate game mechanics from lore. Classic.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Inability to take a joke.

Even better

Deep breathes, relax. It’s fiction

[Mithaelar-moon-guard]

@Akiril-bladefist

I know it is gameplay but I do find it curious playable Man’ari don’t reconstitute in the Twisting Nether. So much for my theory about disposable shock troopers for the Alliance that could endlessly regenerate.

They only reconstituted because of Argus’s world soul.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Mithaelar-moon-guard

They only reconstituted because of Argus’s world soul.

Wrong. All Argus did was speed up the process and give them a central place to respawn at so they weren’t scattered all over the twisting nether when they inevitably came back

[Akiril-bladefist]

Oh shoot. No more earning “penance” by being thrown into suicide missions. There goes both the RP for my Man’ari (summoned as a demon by my Undead Lock) and my plans for RP for another.

Basically I’m playing them as not associated with Draenei at all, because Man’ari being buddy buddy with Draenei is like Ataturk being best friends with Pashinyan (Prime Minister of Armenia).

There should be literally no love at all, especially considering they’ve spent the last 10-20,000 years purposefully exterminating Draenei.

Note: There was no plan for Penance. They were going to be an evil version of the 86. Fantastic book series.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Akiril-bladefist

Basically I’m playing them as not associated with Draenei at all, because Man’ari being buddy buddy with Draenei is like Ataturk being best friends with Pashinyan (Prime Minister of Armenia).

I’m doing something sort of similar with my character. Mines just a person who’s forging a brand new path new path for himself. If anyone wants to help along the way, great. But it’s not expected or demanded of anyone

[Akiril-bladefist]

Nice. While we disagree on how they are included, I am happy you are enjoying it and finding it fun. I think the story that a player can make for their Man’ari is fantastic… it’s just that the quests to bring them in were… uck. Questionable at best.

Definitely fun story making potential.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

I’m not saying the quest itself was great or anything. Just that it served its purpose of introducing repentant Man’ari.

Which as I said, is fine for what the quest was designed as. Sure, it could have been better, I admitted that a few times now.

But yeah, I am enjoying myself immensely. It’s honestly the most fun I had in a long time

[Akiril-bladefist]

Heh it’s honestly why I came back. Playing a Man’ari Warlock who was summoned and enthralled by another Warlock… and summons their own pets/thralls/whatever. It’s just hilarious. I don’t have much time and I know I won’t be able to play long just due to a combo of work, law school, and familial obligations (and just plain getting older so having to get more sleep, not in my 20s anymore)… but I am enjoying it immensely.

Brings me back to being a kid and RPing crazy stories.

[Galenar-khazgoroth (Galenar)]

@Mithaelar-moon-guard

Unless Kil’jaeden was ominpresent, then at some point in the last tens of thousands of years that the man’ari have been eradicating life on countless worlds and attempting to eradicate their former kin (the Draenei), they would have had multiple opportunities to defect. The argument that they were coerced to obey is ridiculous, considering the proximal and temporal components of this story; it spans entire worlds across tens of thousands of years.

How do you know he wasn’t omnipresent in a metaphorical sense? Just because he can see into their heads doesn’t mean that’s his only method of detecting dissent. A fanatical cult such as the Burning Legion would be full of people willing to turn over traitors to the cause.

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Mithaelar-moon-guard

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Side note: You talk about Orce society not changing, It pretty much has changed every time. After Garrosh, all the war chiefs weren’t Orcs. After Sylvanas, the position was abolished completely.

Two attempted genocides in the span of, what, 5 years? That’s not meaningful change lol

They tried. Isn’t that what you were asking for? Or are you condemning them for failure? In the end, this is just saying bad things happened, so people of the same race as those who did the bad things are responsible, no matter what they did try and so.

And, to the original point, “Orcs” include anyone who did try. And anyone without power. And anyone who didn’t know. All being judged because they were born into the wrong race.

I’m quoting myself here because you never answered who is responsible for society change.

And I’m telling you who isn’t. Anyone without the power or understanding to enact societal change, which you include when you talk about “responsibility” of “Orcs”.

Who is resonsible? Those who chose to do nothing when they could. Which is not all Orcs.

In other words, everyone is responsible for their choices, not what race they were born into.

Why are you bringing up arguments I’m not making? I’m not arguing all Muslims or all Arabs are responsible for change when it comes to Islamic terrorist organizations. In fact, I pretty directly said (in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict) that Israelis are the ones responsible for change in their society to address the injustices Israel commits within the context of that conflict. I directly argued against Jewish collective responsibility for the actions and policies of the Israeli government.
I’m talking about specific societies, not racial, ethnic, cultural, or religious groups which span multiple societies.

Stop equivocating things that aren’t equivalent and making strawman arguments I never once engaged in.

At this point, it’s pretty clear you’re boxing with shadows of something you find personally offensive which is not at all what I’m advocating. You refuse to engage with my actual points and are putting words into my mouth which were never said. If you want to continue this debate, actively engage with what I’m saying, otherwise move onto a space that is discussing the things you want to discuss. I’ve repeated it multiple times no

Individuals within a society/sovereign nation (Not an ethnic, racial, or religious group) are collectively responsible for societal change in the wake of serious moral failings of said society.

Orcish society, as portrayed in WoW and other media, is fundamentally flawed with regards to ideals of conflict. It is up to orcs to dismantle and/or reform the flawed institutions. You said it yourself, Orcish leadership is partially democratic. They are not a completely authoritarian society. Change has happened as individuals spoke out and put their feet down (Albeit way too late) when their leadership failed them. What needs to happen next is long-term, meaningful change that prevents situations like those from arising in the future. The paradigm of an entire civilization doesn’t change based solely on the actions of leadership or those in positions of power.

OK, your tone is getting personal. From my point of view, you are trying to avoid the consequences of your claim for group responsibility by picking at irrelevant issues. I’ve made my point, I’ll do this post and stop here.

I think the disntiction you are making doesn’t exist. Blaming all Orcs for what Garrosh did is the same as blaming all Muslims for bin Laden. People claim that Islam is flawed (and , just like you claim Orc society is flawed, and demand that every Muslim be “reasonable” for stopping terrorism. Just like you are claiming that every Orc is responsible for not stopping Sylvanas or (or maybe Garrosh assuming they can see the future).

There are many who would say that indeed there is a Muslim Society (or at least an Arab-Muslim one). But even if we take Saudi Arabia (that is “society” enough for you right?) do I have a right to demand every Saudi stop terrorist attacks? There are Muslims who aren’t in a position to do so, or are already doing so. There are Saudis who aren’t in a position to do so, or already are doing so, and there are Orcs who aren’t in a position to do so, and (and almost certain some who are already doing so). To assign people responsibility is judging them based on the group that you identify for them, not for their choices.