I am concerned with how Blizzard addresses redemption from attempted (or completed) genocide

Lore Story Forum
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The new man’ari questline is particularly concerning.

Let’s go over what seems to be the primary reason why the man’ari are suddenly worthy of a chance at redemption

  • Kil’jaeden could detect doubt and would execute anyone who doubted

Unless Kil’jaeden was ominpresent, then at some point in the last tens of thousands of years that the man’ari have been eradicating life on countless worlds and attempting to eradicate their former kin (the Draenei), they would have had multiple opportunities to defect. The argument that they were coerced to obey is ridiculous, considering the proximal and temporal components of this story; it spans entire worlds across tens of thousands of years.

  • Velen compares the man’ari to Death Knights, Illidari, and Orcs

Oh boy, where to start?

Death Knights:

  • Many, but not all, were unwillingly raised from the dead and were telepathically compelled by the Lich King to obey.
    Unlike the man’ari, there wasn’t the threat of death looming over them if they disobeyed; they simply COULD NOT disobey.

  • Once they found freedom at Light’s Hope Chapel, they instantly seized the opportunity to rebel against their former master, unlike the man’ari who had thousands of years and made no considerable moves in that time.

Illidari:

  • Illidan’s justification for his actions throughout his story has been fighting the greater evil by whatever means necessary and at great personal sacrifice.

  • The Illidari were not on a multi-world, thousands of years genocidal rampage, even if you consider their greatest sins to be equivalent to genocide. If most or many of the Illidari were trained after Illidan was released in WC3, they had only been following his orders for less than 20 years before they were released from the Vault of the Wardens

Orcs:
Orcs haven’t even begun to atone for their crimes in any meaningful ways

  • Orcish society continues to value violence fundamentally
    Their leader, even in times of peace, is called a WARchief
    They condone solving conflict via duels to the death (mak’gora)
    They have allowed not one, not two, not even just three (3) genocidal warmongers to lead them
    They continue to punish pacifism as a form of weakness
    They have continuously allowed war criminals to remain in positions of power
  • Orcs have repeatedly demonstrated their propensity towards violence, even without demonic influence
    Garrosh, an uncorrupted orc, went on his own genocidal warpath. When he lost, he went through time and space to convince other uncorrupted orcs to do the same.
    So the argument that they were under the influence of demonic corruption via Mannoroth’s blood falls apart when you look at the Iron Horde. All it took was a little poke and prod from Garrosh and promises of power for them to conquer Draenor and then decide that wasn’t enough and invade Azeroth

So let’s compare Orcs and Man’ari to an in-game example of a problematic culture seeking to reform itself in the wake of grievous sins: enter the Forsaken

The Forsaken are victims of circumstance much more so than Orcs, but that’s mostly irrelevant. They are people forced into Undeath trying to survive in their homelands and are overwhelmingly reviled by the living races. They made terrible mistakes and resorted to terrible and awful violence and following those who promote it. Finally, after Sylvannas and the Fourth War, they decided enough was enough. They reformed their entire government, forged new alliances, and pledged themselves to be better. TIME WILL TELL if they uphold their new reforms, but the steps were taken.

For a salient real-world example of how a people can overcome and reform from a history of genocide, look at Germany. After WW2, Germany reformed their entire system of government and, on top of that, CRIMINALIZED sympathizing with the previous regime, whose name is forbidden to type on this forum. It took time, and it took strength of will and reflection, but they accomplished it.

Did Orcs or Man’ari reform their government in any meaningful way? Have they criminalized ideals and behaviors that might lead them down paths of violence and genocide again?

Why do the man’ari deserve a chance at redemption? Because one of them told Velen he was scared of Kil’jaeden from across time and space and then helped Velen recover a pretty rock?

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you forget the scarlet crusade from vanilla? theyre pretty much the same genocidal maniacs just only on a planet and not in space like space goats & brokens are.

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What’s your point? Scarlet Crusaders continue to be antagonists, not allies.

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Propaganda my dear. It’s a powerful weapon. Fear is a powerful weapon as well.
RL compared; current Russia.

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I don’t understand what, if any, point you are trying to make.

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i think anybody should be allowed to repent if they genuinely mean it and aren’t doing it for more self-serving reasons, and repentance does not guarantee or entitle one to forgiveness

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They aren’t worthy of a chance at redemption. The questline did not give them this chance. They are not redeemed, forgiven or anything close to such. Also, the Death Knights still perform Scourge-level activities (see: Legion), the Illidari have practiced mass slavery, forced conscription of a planet’s inhabitants into their own soldiers and are demons themselves. Both are still very evil; the reason why they are not threats is because they don’t want to conquer Azeroth.

Also, you’re wrong on the Orcs in several points.

Orcish society continues to value violence fundamentally - No it doesn’t. It values ancestral worship and shamanistic values, honor to oneself, honor to their clan and honor to the Horde.
Their leader, even in times of peace, is called a WARchief - No it isn’t, the Warchief is, or was the leader of the entire Horde. Their leaders in times of peace (and also war) were called Chieftains.
They have allowed not one, not two, not even just three (3) genocidal warmongers to lead them - And they’ve rebelled against and no longer follow a single one of them (the majority of the orcs stood against Garrosh, and against Sylvanas the orcs also opposed her with the Mag’har choosing to affirm themselves to the greater Horde after she had left.
Orcs have repeatedly demonstrated their propensity towards violence, even without demonic influence
Garrosh, an uncorrupted orc, went on his own genocidal warpath. When he lost, he went through time and space to convince other uncorrupted orcs to do the same. - Wrong. The orcs even in the AU were not a monolith and were opposed by the Frostwolves and Laughing Skull with several orcs defecting from the Iron Horde.
They condone solving conflict via duels to the death (mak’gora) - Mak’gora not only does not have to be a duel to the death, I frankly fail to see how this is an issue against them.

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i think anybody should be allowed to repent if they genuinely mean it and aren’t doing it for more self-serving reasons

Maybe. I won’t say no, but I don’t think it’s a clear-cut answer either way. That being said, the time to attain redemption should be SOMEHOW proportional to the crime.

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If I’m wrong, I’ll happily correct myself. Where is that from?

One genocidal person rising to power in a particular group of people is concerning. Two is inexcusable, no matter how many (or few) dissented.

Pointing to the minority isn’t helping your case really.

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OK but they’re definitely trusted enough

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Do you not know what propaganda means?

The Man’ari feared their leaders. Maybe all those things he said weren’t true but he believed it and feared it.

How our Russian ‘friend’ told his people the war was started by the other side, and they believed him.

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OK and over the course of more than 10,000 years no one thought to test the boundaries if they strongly morally objected to what they were doing?

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Those who tested were likely squished out before it became known? He explained that too. Remember, the legion also has eyeballs everywhere. Bet there was a good reward for being a snitch, too.

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So, again, over the course of over 10,000 years there was never an opportunity when 1, 10, 100, 1,000, or 10,000 Man’ari were alone from prying eyes or ears?

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So is it propaganda or real? If it’s just propaganda they believed, then when they tried the boundaries they would realize it was a lie. If it was real… Well, it wasn’t real because see all the times Kil’jaeden was deceived by those under his command.2

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If I’m wrong, I’ll happily correct myself. Where is that from?

The game and lore from various sources such as the Rise of the Horde, which showed orcish society pre-Horde when they were a separate people led by Chieftains rather than a unified one led by a Warchief, and such as the fact that two non-orcs were elected to the position - Vol’jin and Sylvanas. The Warchief is not an inherently orcish leader, it was, is and has always been the leader of the Horde as a whole no matter their race.

One genocidal person rising to power in a particular group of people is concerning. Two is inexcusable, no matter how many (or few) dissented.

Only one rose to power within the orcs - Garrosh, who was again deposed by the majority of the orcs with Garrosh actually holding the minority of orcish support. The other, Sylvanas was not an orc, she was an undead elf and the leader of the Horde.

Pointing to the minority isn’t helping your case really.

How so? You claimed the orcs had demonstrated a propensity towards violence, even without demonic influence, and I gave two examples which quickly became two of the strongest clans because every other was absolutely slaughtered. Are the Frostwolves and Laughing Skull not orcs? I can list far more if you wish, such as the modern-day Orcs who are -not- under demonic influence. We already see clans like the Warsong striving to never again fall under Garrosh’s dishonor led by Chieftain Gorgonna, the Dragonmaw who have begun to strive to never again perform the atrocities they had once committed, to see their clan become strong with honor and not slavery or die trying.

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Last time I checked, she had the support of many, if not the majority, of orcs up until she was deposed. She rose to power in a system of government built by orcs. To say she’s an elf and therefore the Orcs are completely detached from her actions is erroneous at best and disingenuous at worst.

What about the other Warchiefs before him?

By who?

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One word:

Dreadlords.

For a species who’s entire existence is manipulation, deception, creating doubt and fear… it was probably very easy to keep track of who was loyal and who was not. And for those who weren’t, they were made either suitably afraid to step out of line or… “dealt” with. Even if Kil’jdaen himself wasn’t aware of every individual Man’ari… the cabal of Dreadlords feeding him information would be. Not to mention all the Observers and Inquisitors at Kil’jaeden’s beck and call.

Any rumblings of dissent were probably rooted out and summarily dealt with relative ease when Dreadlords are involved. Heck, they probably viewed it as a game and let the dissenting Man’ari think they would get away, only for Mal’Ganis to show up with an army of Wrathguards and Inquisitors.

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And dreadlords are invincible? Again, over 10,000 or 20,000 years, no Man’ari had strong enough moral objections to what they were doing to band together and successful defect?

The problem with these arguments is that they fail to account for the enormous numbers of the Legion. Numbers meaning quantity of man’ari in the Legion, the amount of time involved, and the sheer distances involved. There was not a dreadlord or an eye or some other spy following every single man’ari’s every move for tens of thousands of years. That’s ridiculous.

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Last time I checked, she had the support of many, if not the majority, of orcs up until she was deposed. She rose to power in a system of government built by orcs. To say she’s an elf and therefore the Orcs are completely detached from her actions is erroneous at best and disingenuous at worst.

Any soldier no matter their race that followed her orders to the point of partaking in stuff like Brennadam is not detached from such, and besides her genocidal policies were not the only reason she had followers. The Forsaken followed her because she rallied them after they were freed from Ner’zhul’s grasp and built them up when no one else would, represented them when no one else would, but they’re not the topic of discussion in this conversation. Sylvanas despite her unpopularity has proven herself to be a competent leader, competence being something orcs hold in great value. Besides, she’s never outright oppressed any of the Horde nations like Garrosh did, and as they were in the middle of a war, attempting to overthrow her could and would have meant the Horde’s end after the Burning of Teldrassil which she did in an unexpected move that none of the Horde thought was going to happen. Especially after the Burning of Teldrassil, when it was incredibly unlikely that the Night Elves and the Alliance would have stopped the war even if the Horde killed her right then and there.

What about the other Warchiefs before him?

Blackhand is long dead and no longer a figure the orcs hold in value, and Doomhammer despite his campaign against the Alliance of Lordaeron genuinely desired to free the Old Horde from the corruption of Gul’dan and demonic slavery and is one of the reasons why the Orcs managed to escape from the internment camps.

By who?

The Horde, Alliance, the Frostwolves and the Laughing Skulls, the Draenei… The Iron Horde were being slaughtered by just about every foe that opposed them on Draenor.

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