yea, I’m not reading all the 400+ posts. just mentioning that I think most of WoW recent narratives are bat#### crazy. The whiplash flipping from BFA to Horde and Alliance getting into hug circles is neck-snapping nonsense. Just penduluming from one extreme to another. Alliance shouldn’t ever be able to forgive the Horde, Horde shouldn’t be able to ever forgive the Horde, and any and all Legion members should be exterminated on sight without a second thought or an ounce of guilt.
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I have exact same sentiment. If Blizzard decided to go toward extreme they should stick with this decision.
And not pretend it didn’t happen and sweep all of the problems under carpet. The cognitive disonance is real.
As you said Alliance should never forgive the Horde, and Horde should be in a serious identity crisis, where various sub factions would have issues with each other.
Actually it would be very entertaining showdown:
“It is Sylvanas fault! She dragged us toward this mess!”
“And who appointed Sylvanas? Wasn’t that brilliant chieftain of yours?”
“He did it because she saved us on broken shore, why don’t you blame her for her own decisions? Do orcs always have to follow each command to a T? Garrosh didn’t teach you anything?!”
“Everybody was participating in it! Even Tauren!”
“Hey, hey, hey don’t drag Tauren into it… we always try for the best”
“… by conspiring with Alliance behind OUR BACKS?! WHEN WAR IS GOING?”
“whoa whoa whoa… don’t jump on me. Saurfang did it first!”
“Don’t change the subject! When things go rough you always run to Alliance first! We captured your correspondence with Anduin!”
“Who… how…?”
“Gob Squad”
“Those pesky bastards! If they would focus on fixing their god for nothing machinery maybe we wouldn’t have to march through entire Ashenvale and Darkshore but directly fly to Teldrassil and capture it as Intended!”.
“Why we always get a slack over our inventions? Why don’t you pick up on those pesky elves! They can make portals for crying out loud, they claim to know everything and would do everything, but when thing go rough they always try to fix their relations with Alliance, even now they’re escaping backdoor and joining it!”
“Lies! These people are traitors! I ordered them to kill them on sight!”
or something like that.
It would be funny at least.
The Devs really didn’t think through taking the war too far
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The sources do not say they were on the offensive. The source does not say if the Trolls tried to stop the Night Elves at the start of their expansion or after they had already taken most of the world.
Fandral likely could not have invoked the Night Warrior with his disliking Trolls saying that Night Elves came from them. He was just a petty sociopath that would resort to murder on a whim. Tyrande also wouldn’t have been able to invoke the Night Warrior for lumber theft, or she would have done so in at Warsong Gulch and again the Garrosh’s war.
The Night Elves only gained more use of the Well of Eternity during Azshara’s reign, and even then the majority of the population were not Highborne that had access to it. Likely early in the Night Elves’ history they did not have as advanced arcane powers, as they saw the Well of Eternity as more or a holy site where Elune rested than a source of arcane power.
It’s available right now.
I see logical fallacy in this claim.
You have to be offensive in order to take this big amount of territory. Why would trolls venture outside of their territories if they were established to be happy eith what they had? The only way they vould clash is when nelves would end at their doorstep.
Fandral was not the exception. You yourself said that in WC3 nelcws attacked without asking questions. They are perfectly capable of striking first over petty reasons.
No, they had access to it from the very start. It’s the Well that tranformed them. It’s thanks to well that they quickly became proficient in magic and that well was greatly empowering their spells.
Zandalari were no strangers to Arcane, during their Alliance with Mogu they exchanged the knowledge, and they found that their magic was easily broken. It was always the well.
Besides, I am quite baffled that they pulled this night Warrior stunt to begin with, because don’t you think it would come handy during War of Shifting sands? That wasn’t a danger?
It just sounds ridiculous to invoke it when you already have enemies that are in a disadvantage. We know that toppling twin empires was barely an inconvenience to them. So using Night Warrior during that time would be clear act of pettiness because we’re not talking about people backed into corner and being desperate. We’re talking about quickly growing superpower that is expanding in rapid pace.
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Sean Copeland didn’t know that Grom Hellscream killed Cenarius.
He wrote that trolls require elven education to learn the concept of Erosion.
I’m uncertain that anyone should consider anything he writes ‘canon.’
Least of all, Blizzard Entertainment 
.
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Not in every scenario. As you have constantly brought up, Chronicle states the following about that eon:
- On occasion, tribes clashed, often over hunting grounds. Yet major conflicts were few, and rarely length. Trolls were such skilled and fierce fighters that any real conflict would cost both sides dearly. Untouched land was plentiful in all directions, and the various tribes quickly learned it was wiser to resettle than risk war.
If the Trolls had left much of their claimed lands untouched, just wide open areas with few population centers, the Night Elves would have simply had to start spreading out and building on said untouched lands.
Especially when the Trolls became more isolated after the Aqir war:
- Without war to bind them together, the troll factions grew ever more distant and insular. The far-flung strongholds of the different tribes blossomed into vibrant homes, temple cities, and eventually empires in their own right.
They certainly are. Petty reasons are unlikely to be able to let someone invoke the Night Warrior. Could be why so many died trying after the first one until Tyrande succeeded.
I had miswrote. Before you posted I had edit that sentence to say “more use” rather than just use, as obviously the Night Elves did have access to the Well of Eternity, even if it only was during Azshara’s reign that study of it advanced significantly.
It wasn’t needed. With the Dragons’ help the Night Elves were able to seal the Qiraji away. And rather than become wrathful from his son’s death, Fandral just turned into a sadsack.
Only during Azshara’s reign. The culture that the Night Elves came from was not a warrior one:
- Before their war with the aqir, the troll tribes claimed large swaths of Kalimdor. Many of those groups, such as the Gurubashi and the Amani, clashed with each other over hunting grounds. Yet one tribe was unconcerned with these battles for land and power. Known as dark trolls, they lived un a network of deep caverns that stretched beneath Mount Hyjal. They abhorred daylight, only emerging from their underground burrows at night. The dark trolls’ nocturnal habits changed them over time, turning their blue-hued skin into shades of gray.
The dark trolls cherished their independence from greater troll society, and they largely ignored the activities of the other tribes. Unlike their Gurubashi and Amani cousins, they longed for a peaceful connection to the natural world. Dark troll mystics often sought ways to commune with the land and live in harmony with it.
Just because something is stupid doesn’t mean it’s not canon. See the burning of Teldrassil with catapults with only a couple hundred yards of range.
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so why hasn’t OP added the nelves’ genocide onto his list
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I chalk it up to being inconvenient to whatever point he attempted to make
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I could go for that route too. It’d be an actual example of the “morally grey” that certain writers claim to value.
Speaking as someone who got A LOT of flak for saying that Yrel’s group aren’t the mustache-twirling zealots some people claim, this is satisfying for me to read.
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Yes, then why Nelves in their greed wanted to take troll lands aswell? Trolls left lots of land for the purpose to use it as hunting grounds.
Which proves that they were not expanding, nelves did.
I don’t this it was petty to them. To us, posters, but that might not be the case for those who lived back in the day.
Aquir under the control of Old god wasn’t good enough target? Endless armies of bugs that consumed everything on their way, the same bugs which pushed elves back and back until they had to ask the dragons for aid becuase they ran of any other option?
And you tell me that trolls were the reason to invoke night Warrior when they were already in massive disdvantage because they didn’t have access to WoE? The same trolls who were the ones pushed to a corner and forced to surrend?
Not the people who had upper hand to begin with?
That doesn’t add up.
I really don’t understand what do you want to say there? That Dark trolls were the Night Warriors?
I don’t get why do you bring example of Dark trolls. What that has to do with nelven expansion? Other than Dark trolls being retconned from being the stupidests and the most bruthish of all the trolls.
If enough of the lands that the Trolls had claimed as there own was left unoccupied then the Night Elves might not have realized they had expanded into Troll borders, especially given the Dark Trolls hadn’t been keeping tract of the activities of the other Trolls.
I did not say the Trolls were expanding at that time.
Either it wasn’t enough reason to invoke the Night Warrior, or people were too afraid to try because others had died attempting it.
Does not seem they were good enough a target, no. They dealt with C’Thun relatively quickly, though. In comparison, the Endless War against the Old God that attacked Thiernax’s planet lasted for four generations before Qadarin’s mother attempted to become the Night Warrior, only to die from the ritual, and Thiernax making the successful attempt after.
The other Trolls such as the Amani and Gurubashi were skilled fighters, enough so that wars between them would lead to battles of mutually assured destruction. The Dark Trolls were not likely as suited to combat as the other Trolls, and likewise the early Night Elves that they became were not likely, either. The Trolls likely had advantage against the early Night Elves, who would still have been a nature based culture rather than one that had used arcane significantly.
There is no evidence that a night warrior existed on Azeroth before Tyrande. Elune probably just told the nelves and lunalai about night warriors on other worlds.
Edit:
Alternatively, some nelves hyped up titan blood blessed by Elune were screaming “I HAVE ACHIEVED THE LEGEND” Vegeta in the Frieza saga style.
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There are legends from both the Night Elves and Trolls that a Night Warrior exited on Azeroth before Tyrande.
I don’t think Zekhan is a member of the Lunalai.
But my subscription runs out again in three hours, so I’ll be off for another month.
Lunalai are trolls.
Also, again, elves were drinking what might as well be hyper demon blood. Trolls wouldn’t know the source of their power. Especially if Vegeta was screaming “I HAVE REALIZED THE LEGEND!” eighty five times while fighting them.
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Given that a record the Night Elves did have about the Night Warrior was how to perform the ritual, I don’t think they would have been misinformed like Vegeta was.
They know how to do it
But not who it was.
Are you not seeing how these two things only match if there was no night warrior before?
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That question is not a true statement at all. Forgetting who someone was does not mean they did not exist. Dragonflight even has a quest about a forgotten Black Dragon, Hraxian, who was a legend.
My subscription is up.
But we see them.
Danuser made a point that characters are unreliable narrators. We can only trust what we ourselves see when our characters are present, presuming old god magic is not at play.
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now that i have redeemed myself because saurfang died I will keep the land in ashenvale and get all the lumber
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