I don’t think they are worthy of redemption just because they defected. I think they can only be redeemed through actions moving forward.
Good to know. I actually wasn’t aware of this myself.
We know very little about the start of the Kaldorei empire, which was long before Azshara. What we have heard of it we got from Maiev and Zekhan:
- Maiev Shadowsong says: Legend says that long ago, Elune bestowed her fury upon our greatest warriors to secure Kalimdor.
Maiev Shadowsong says: In a sacred ritual, the strongest among them became her avatar–the Night Warrior. Our victory was swift.
- In ancient times, the Night Warrior carved out stretches of the kaldorei empire, taking lands from people like my ancestors.
It is most obviously notable that the Night Warrior ritual is one of wrath and vengeance, not simply a hunger for power.
We have also been told that the case of the Trolls against Azshara was started by the Trolls, from the very Chronicle pages you cited yourself:
- Only the openly hostile troll nations drew the full attention of the elves. Small, sporadic battles ignited between the two sides. On every occasion, the trolls buckled before the devastating magics wielded by the night elves. Azshara, however, was not interested in conquest.
Given that the Night Warrior has only been successfully invoked in retaliation against those that harmed the invoker’s people, it is most likely that the Trolls attacked the Night Elves first, as has practically always been the case in every historical event involving a war with Trolls.
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Maiev is an unreliable narrator.
Chronicle 1 was sold as objective fact.
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Then you agree that Azhara had no interest in conquest.
Whether her personal interest was din conquest or not is irrelevant to the fact that she had her empire continue to expand it’s borders.
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Expanding borders does not entail killing others. The Humans were left alone until Sargeras got involved, and Azshara didn’t bother killing the Trolls even after they lost to her.
As Walter Stroud says in Starfield,
“When you build an empire company strong enough, you can leave it to its own day to day minutae as you use your free time to delve into the esoteric.”
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That is what Azshara did, yes, focusing on the Wall of Eternity until Sargeras contacted her through it.
Night elves thought of all other races as lesser.
They killed to take land.
Azshara’s personal interests are irrelevant to the running of her empire in day to day minutae.
Furthermore this is utterly irrelevant.
“But she stopped genociding cause she literally got bored.”
Okay but she still had her people commit the largest genocide azeroth has ever seen.
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Also untrue. The Kaldorei Empire claimed Tirisfal as their lands. They did not kill the Humans to do so. Azshara leaving things to run themselves actually allowed Cenarius to keep sway over the majority of the Night Elves, as per Chronicle, which you defined as objective fact:
- Mesmerized by their discovery, the dark trolls settled along the Well of Eternity’s shores. Over generations, the energies radiating from the lake suffused the trolls’ flesh and bones, elevating their forms to match their graceful spirits. They transformed into highly intelligent and virtually immortal beings. These former trolls gradually abandoned their ancient heritage and traditions. The tribe’s mystics began worshipping the moon goddess, Elune, who they believed was bound to the Well of Eternity itself. They claimed that the deity slumbered within the fount’s depths during daylight hours.
The former trolls also discovered the name “Kalimdor” and other titan-forged words from communing with Elune and investigating strange artifacts scattered around the Well’s periphery. Influenced by this newfound language, they called themselves kaldorei—“children of the stars”— or night elves.
The trees, flowers, and woodland creatures silently watched the night elves flourish, whispering news of them to the Wild Gods of Hyjal. Among them, the demigod Cenarius took a keen interest in these newcomers at the Well of Eternity’s shores. 'The night elves would claim he was the son of the great White Stag, Malorne, and Elune herself. Cenarius adored the night elves and believed they had the potential to become great caretakers of nature. He befriended the fledgling race and taught them about the natural world. It was Cenarius’s hope that the night elves would strive to live in harmony with the wilds.
For many centuries, the night elves did. They built a graceful society around the Well of Eternity. The capital of their small nation was called Elun’dris, or “the Eye of Elune,” and it was founded on the shores of the fount of power. The night elves also honed their ties with the surrounding woodlands and their myriad inhabitants. Cenarius guided the night elves when necessary, pleased by the wisdom and benevolence that thrummed in their hearts.
The spirits and demigods who roamed the sylvan forests unsettled the queen. She knew in her bones that Hyjal was somehow beyond even her influence. It was a place steeped in ancient magic, a wild, untamable, and unchangeable land that stood in stark contrast to her vision of a new Kalimdor. Publicly, Azshara prohibited expansion into Hyjal out of respect for the night elves’ ancient kinship with the forests. In truth, she despised the mountain and the harmony it represented.
Azshara’s views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched the night elf empire expand. Year by year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folk still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius’s heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her arrogant followers.
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When I get home from work I’ll highlight the before and after page by page. Number by number.
There is no need to do so. That the Kaldorei Empire claimed parts of lands that the Gurabashi, Amani, Drakkari, and Humans lived on did not mean the people there were necessarily killed.
Even Azshara just had the Zandalari police the Trolls in her empire rather than have them killed. Which the Zandalari were prone to do so any way, as we saw at Zul’Gurub in vanilla and Zul’Drak in Wrath.
That quote does not state who started it though. Only that the trolls were hostile to the nelves. Which drew their attention.
In the troll compendium we’re told specifically that the night elves started their rise by defeating the nearby troll tribes, and that this is the reason for the trolls ire. That would imply the elves started it, that said, technically this also does not explicitly say who started it.
Either way the nelves took control over more than half of the territory trolls had.
All that said, I’d recommend not to argue with Dreadmoore since you can’t argue with him at all.
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the Man’ari are not redeemed, they do not want redemption or forgiveness, explicitly
All that’s happened is that some have moved from one evil faction to an ever so slightly less evil one, the Alliance
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That is a wishful thinking. You can’t take almost entire world without killing anyone.
That is just impossible.
And Azshara forced Zandalari to surrend, otherwise she would wipe them out. And later she intended to do it anyway, as the ultimate goal was to purge the world of “lesser races”.
Zandalari are like parent tribe, They can implore them to do something but in the end other tribes still maintain their autonomy. Gurubashi especially are infamous for doing the things they were forbidden to anyway.
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The Troll Compendium has Night Elves stating that they defeated nearby Troll tribes as evidence that Night Elves were not descended from Trolls, which is the most obvious definition of unreliable narrator.
I do not think the Night Elves took control of most of world without any killing. Maiev and Zekhan both state that the first Night Warrior on Azeroth was what allowed the Night Elves to overtake everyone. And as stated before, the Night Warrior ritual is one of retaliation, so while they certainly did likely kill many people, it would have been those who attacked them first.
Since Vanilla you have this book available. I know there were lots of retcons in the game, but considering that it’s still there and as you mentioned the description is vague enough in chronicrles and compedium, I’d consider it to be still canon. And it doesn’t paint Nelves in a good way:
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The book doesn’t state which side started the violence:
- Aside from their shadowy origins, it is clear that the night elves came to power soon after their discovery of the Well of Eternity. Despite the trolls’ attempts to keep them from expanding their territories, the night elves built up a mighty empire that expanded rapidly across primordial Kalimdor.