Just going to point out that war crimes are specifically crimes done during a war. So people like Maiev and Van Cleef aren’t war criminals. Just regular every day normal criminals. They did bad things yes. They should be punished for them. But they aren’t war crimes.
It’s also weird to compare either of those two to genocide since neither of them did anything even remotely comparable.
He doesn’t, because there isn’t.
Basically Dreadmoore is reading text, creating his own interpretation of that text, and then acting as if that’s canon lore when it isn’t.
There is a thing called Subtext though. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated that some troll tribes were exterminated while the Kaldorei violently marched across Kalmindor as they expanded their empire.
I know some people like to pretend the old empire did nothing wrong, but this is getting old. And mind you, nobody is blaming the current crop of Kaldorei for what Azshara and her kin did. Just that it likely happened, given the sheer size of their empire and how half the troll kingdoms no longer exist or are A LOT smaller than what they were
Oh no, they did plenty wrong. We know for example that they enslaved nascent humans.
And it’s obvious that their expansion wasn’t a bloodless one either. There were many skirmishes between the Kaldorei Empire and the troll tribes. But if you read into the lore surrounding that early expansion, they won their battles by attacking troll supply lines and dismantling their defences (at least according to the Troll Compendium, which is dubious canon as Blizzard did not preserve it when they updated the World of Warcraft website).
There’s also, frankly, way too much that we don’t know, such as:
All of these questions are vitally important to determine if the Kaldorei Empire engaged in genocide as Dreadmoore claims. If for example, the trolls only had a few scattered settlements, which were abandoned as the Troll Empire lost battle after battle, then no, that’s not genocide.
If the Kaldorei Empire captured and used trolls as slave labor, then that’s obviously deplorable and we can criticize them for engaging in slavery (which we know they already did as they enslaved nascent humans) but engaging in slavery is not genocide.
If the bulk of the Troll population lived in the big cities like Zandalar, Zul’aman, Zul’Gurub, Zul’Drak etc, and only a few small isolated villages were elsewhere, then all the Kaldorei would have killed were troll warriors in battles similar to the Troll Wars that were waged by the Elves and Humans thousands of years later. In which case, again, no genocide there, just military conquest.
The problem with ‘reading between the lines’ and trying to glean meaning out of subtext, is that if you interpret that subtext wrong, as Dreadmoore is doing, you can come up with theories that are not supported by what is plainly written.
Counter point, using what you said, than you can’t claim it WASN’T a genocide with the information that’s plainly written either. Because as you just said, the book leaves out a ton of details on the matter.
This is the kind of subtext where you’re allowed to read into it what you will and nobody is wrong for taking one side or the other since blizz is likely never going to give us the full picture or the small details.
True, but I’m not the one making the claim of elves engaging in genocide.
When you’re arguing a point, as Dreadmoore is doing, trying to claim that the Elves engaged in genocide, the onus is on you, as the person making the argument, to support your position with evidence.
But what evidence Dreadmoore has provided does not support the claim that he’s making. And subtext interpretation is not evidence.
The big argument he was making with me before I slapped him on ignore was as follows:
“The Night Elf empire forced the trolls to stop attacking them on pain of death.”
Nowhere is that stated. I countered by pointing out that the deal was ‘You stop the attacks and you keep your holy mountain’ which is not the same as ‘You stop the attacks or I kill you all.’ but apparently despite the lore clearly stating that it was the former and not the latter, he’s still arguing that it was the latter, with no evidence to support him.
I see where you’re coming from and I respect your opinion on it. This is just one of those lore things were we’ll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Nobody is right or wrong on this, at this point it’s just a matter of personal interpretation on the matter. Unless blizz decides to fill us in on the the important details that is, which is doubtful.
I’m really not buing all this, for me it’s very simple. There was no real split of the society up until the Azshara invited Burning Legion. To that point everyone was benefitting from the expansion of the borders. You’re implying that only Highborne were participating in the onslaught, but that’s just doesn’t make any sense from logistics point of view. Highborne had their subordinates, they had to to have soldiers beneth them.
And seeing that since Cataclysm Highborne joined “the peasant” elves back it shows that they’re indeed a one society. And we’re not talking about younger generations, because elves don’t get a pass on it, they’re old as fossils and live through thousands of years. You can’t hide behind “It’s been long time ago, let’s forge it” when people that are responsible for it are alive to this day.
So to me just becuase the books don’t explicitly describe the amount of harm they did to “lesser races”, doesn’t mean they weren’t guilty of killing people en masse. You just don’t get almost entire globe for yourself without killing people on the way.
And honestly Saundering had to have enormous casulties. That alone should’ve been enoguh.
Azshara was a kaldorei. The Highborn were kaldorei. It was called the Kaldorei Empire.
IRL Humans kill other Humans and can still be labeled a genocide. No one says “well humans did it to humans so it doesn’t count.”
Not sure why people want to act like kaldorei were not genocidal when they even had to stop themselves from destroying the world.
If we are to go by how ancient trolls lived within their territory by comparing to today, then it’s kinda safe to say that there used to be more cities with many villages spread throughout. The zandalari had several cities and ports all throughout zandalar before they fell off, based on the ruins all around the island, there are also many villages around.
The forest trolls at least has Zul’aman, Jintha’alor, Shadra’Alor and whatever those ruins that the belves demolished to build silvermoon used to be. Not to mention a bunch of other villages etc. So from what we’ve seen the trolls are quite well spread around in the areas they claim home, or at least used to based on ruins.
We also know of at least one splinter tribe that split from the Amani and went to live closer to the middle of kalimdor, near the well. But that tribe was then later never heard from again so the trolls speculated that maybe they were the ones that became the nelves, which we now know isn’t true since the nelves came from the dark trolls.
While we can’t prove this tribe was eradicated by the nelves during their expansion, I can only say that it does not look good with a missing tribe near where the nelves lived and that the nelves defeated nearby tribes to claim land.
Still I would maybe not use such a strong word as genocide since there’s so much we don’t know.
Okay, but, counter point. All of those ruins are based around their capitals.
So for example, we know that the Zandalari had a port city in what is now Voldun. But Voldun is still fairly close to Zandalar.
Same with Zul’Aman, Zul’Gurub and Zul’Drak. Hell for the Amani most of the major ruins are fairly close to Zul’Aman, within a day’s ride, maybe two, existing in only four zones: Eversong Woods, Ghostlands, Eastern Plaguelands and the Hinterlands. There are no Troll ruins in the Western Plaguelands, Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest etc, despite the fact that all of those zones were considered ‘Troll territory’ during the height of the Amani Empire.
And having larger settlements/temples built up around a capital city makes sense. I mean, look at the real world as a classic example. If you look at a state capital you will see a significant number of major cities, suburbs and towns around that capital, within an hour or so drive but the further out you go, the fewer settlements there are, and what you have instead is just vast, empty wilderness.
True that there would be a higher population near the capitals, however the hinterlands and the cities there are still quite far away from the capital Zul’Aman. And the villages in the arathi are even further.
There should still be plenty of cities and a ton of villages that were lost by the conquest since they literally lost more than half of the land under their control. If we look at historic maps of the Aztec and Maya empires that the trolls draw inspiration from (among other cultures) then the spread of cities was quite even, but with a lot more in a few metropolitan areas.
I mean, they’re not really. But we can actually use other areas as well.
Zul’Gurub? Troll ruins can only be found in Stranglethorn Vale and the Swamp of Sorrows. That’s it. There’s no evidence of trolls being anywhere else, despite the fact that so much of that territory was originally Gurubashi land.
Zul’Farrak? Troll ruins can only be found in Tanaris, nowhere else. There are no troll ruins in the Thousand Needles, none in Silithus, Ungoro or Uldum. They’re contained to that space.
Zul’Drak? Troll ruins are only found in Zul’Drak itself, and the bordering regions, the most significant number of ruins appearing in Grizzly Hills. No troll ruins in Crystalsong Forest, Howling Fjord etc.
The pattern is fairly clear. The major troll cities exist and in the regions around them troll ruins can be found, but the further out you go, they just vanish, there’s no evidence of their presence at all. Hell if it wasn’t for the chronicle map showing the territory they controlled at the height of their power, you’d be forgiven for thinking that they only controlled tiny areas of land for most of their history.
I just remembered another example. Where there WAS clear intent to eradicate entire tribe. And it was quite recently - in Cataclysm. And I’m not talking about Dark Trolls.
I mean Shatterspear tribe. Now, before I get started I actually wish they were left alone and remained as one of WoW’s mysteries. But unfortunately they were dragged and used as canon fodder and their lore doesn’t make any sense if they’re indeed jungle Trolls from Strnglethorn… like how in the hell was that possible 
.
Anyway, I was doing questing on Alliance side and I paid attention. Yes, they attacked nelves after they joined the Horde. Reasoning was not provided (I am still amazed how Garrosh got into contact with them to begin with considering they were separated and isolated on the land Garrosh never reached by other means) however each of their victims was a Sentinel.
And night elves in response rounded them up, made sure none of them could escape, and literally kill everyone inside in their Vale, so the tribe is purged out of existance.
It’s a miracle they survived, and re-appeared in pre-BfA event.
But it is a proof, that night elves have it in them to go completely on the path “kill them all”.
The Shatterspear were never ‘rounded up and purged’ their leadership was killed and the Vale was attacked because they were aiding the Horde.
But they survived and resumed their relationship with the Night Elves under a new leader. Because prior to the events of the Cataclysm, the Shatterspear Trolls and the Night Elves had an agreement. They were happy to stick to their vale and wouldn’t leave it, and in return the Night Elves would leave them in peace.
A large portion of the continent is sunk under the ocean. The current ruins are the only ones that survived the Sundering
I rest my case.
Okay, sure, but there’s plenty of former troll territory that is still above land.
Tirisfal Glades for example. You can’t find a single troll ruin anywhere there, same with Silverpine Forest and 99% of Hillsbrad. All of that area was troll land originally, and I can’t imagine the humans went and scoured the forests and mountains to remove every single trace of troll existence from those regions.
Same when you go south beyond Arathi. No troll ruins in the Wetlands or Loch Modan.
For the Gurubashi? No troll ruins in Redridge, Duskwood, Elwynn Forest or Westfall, despite the fact that trolls controlled all of that space.
The Drakkari controlled what is now Dragonblight, Howling Fjord and Coldarra, but you can’t find troll ruins there either, with a small exception in Dragonblight where you can find stairs and some small ruins at the very border of Zul’drak.
Now we could just chalk that up to Blizzard not having updated those areas of the world since before the Chronicle Volume 1 was released. But that’s all we have to go on. Aside from specific areas, the trolls didn’t seem to have major cities dotted everywhere.
Anyway I’ve said my piece so I’m going to mute the thread because I feel like at this point I’m just going around in circles. Believe what you want I guess.
Orcs are in clans. Each clan has a chieftain. They banded together and named a warchief. Basically just a group working together with one chosen leader. After the dark portal the azeroth orcs just kind of were knows as the horde with thrall as a warchief eventually. But yes. He is correct. Please you don’t blame the entire race because 2 or 3 bad guys. That comment you made literally is something people like hitler would use as a justification for their genocide lol. They are pointing out that those orcs were not connected to the other orcs. That they had factions not supporting the iron horde. Not to mention that only happens because of dragon interference not organically. Garosh was taken across time/alternate reality for that very reason. Try harder my guy
Likely they were destroyed, And you can find troll ruins behind Tarren Mill. I did a shaman quest there back in the day.
And Grizzly Hills.
Don’t forget that Elves reached those places as well, is there a chance that they’d destroy troll settlements given a chance?
And if we take the High elves for example and how they treated Amani trolls, I’d say that it’s likely the factor.