I am concerned with how Blizzard addresses redemption from attempted (or completed) genocide

Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan kind of go… back and forth in terms of how old they were at the start of the War, the original lore had them as at least full blown adults by the end of the War, so a handful of decades old at least, while the Knaak books turned them into young adult Mary Sue types in their early 20s or late teens. We know this because Tyrande had just recently returned from… priestess school and both of them were agog at how hot she’d become once puberty had hit her (another Knaakism).

Maiev is likely the oldest of current living night elves, but even she is implied to have not been alive during the apex of the empire pre-War, as she speaks of the Night Warrior ritual as if she’d only heard about it and never witnessed it. Jarod is also a young adult in the War of the Ancients trilogy so Maiev likely isn’t much older than he is. It’s a bit wonky because Blizzard seems to waver between wanting to retcon the Knaak stuff and wanting to keep it, so it tends to go back and forth and create this weird hybrid.

I will note that the kaldorei, all the kaldorei, loved Azshara, but anyone not a Highborne really disliked the Highborne themselves. This was to the extent that when the demons started demoning, the kaldorei, even Lord Ravencrest who was not Highborne and thus a political rival, were adamant that the Highborne must have taken Azshara captive and were doing all the evil of their own volition. None of them were on board with the ‘cleanse the world train’, they just couldn’t fathom their precious Light of Lights, whom many of them had never even seen, doing something so terrible.

It’s one reason Tyrande would need to be dragged kicking and screaming to any coronation, because she saw firsthand the damage venerating a ruler to the extent Azshara was could cause.

In terms of if ANY living kaldorei were around during the conquests, it’s again kind of nebulous. We don’t, for example, know how long it took for the immortality of the Well to take hold, kaldorei may have just lived gradually longer and longer lives until they stopped aging. We know Azshara wasn’t the first monarch, and there were those next in line, via the Princes, so at the very least one kaldorei generation did die of old age.

As usual, since we have no idea what the default age of elves is, and Blizzard keeps going back and forth on how old they get, we don’t know how many still lived. Between Azshara halting the expansion and the War of the Ancients was about 2k years, which is… a huge span of time. And so many kaldorei died in the War and then the Sundering, I don’t think anyone who even had parents that fought the trolls, or grandparents, would still be alive.

The biggest contender, that said, to have been alive during the expansion of the Empire would probably be Elisande, but she is dead fives times over.

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Yes it is.

Verbatim

It was accept and become Azshara’s slaves to kill and police trolls for her, or die.

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Once again you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

And using the same image that I already debunked isn’t proof.

Once again, you’re pathologically lying about a screenshot of printed and sold text.

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Dude.

The text literally does not say what you are saying it says.

You’re making stuff up!

I’ve had enough of your nonsense.

“The trolls begrudgingly agreed, fully aware that they stood no chance against their enemy’s arcane powers.

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That’s a weird take, considering “the kaldorei” were slaughtered by the thousands by the highborne and the Legion. And immediately after the Kaldorei ended the threat, they exiled the highborne and completely restructured their society and dedicated their immortal lives to ensuring the Legion doesn’t return and being stewards of nature.

But yeah, totally fair comparison to the people who willingly sided with the Legion for longer than the Night Elves have even existed and then come back demanding they are accepted because “they’ve changed.”

Apples to cucumbers comparing man’ari to kaldorei lmao

Okay.
What does it matter compared to Pax Nelfana?

Mayhaps you have misunderstood.
Mayhaps I poorly wrote what I was trying to convey.

Night Elves have the largest genocide count of Azeroth. That is uncontested.
You can also apply the genocide that orcs committed. Nelves overwhelmingly outgenocided them. The Scourge did not out genocide the Nelves. Illidari have only outdone the nelves if you consider the murder of demons as genocide, which I mean I won’t argue with you on that, I just think it’s important to point out that illidari were killing evil incarnate, and nelves were killing trolls (and also enslaving humans) to take their land.

But Nelves did not outgenocide the Manari.

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So like, I see everoynes disagreeing with you an all that fun stuff, but where are you actually getting this info?

Specifically that, since when did Night Elves invade and destroy countless worlds across the cosmos in every timeline?
EDIT: Oh you said DID NOT lol ya no I agree with you on that, I dono about the rest tho.

So I finally did the quest: Its fine.

I mean…it has to be, we are never (and I do mean NEVER) going to get a real redemption/reform arc from any person or group of people in this cartoon game. You are going to have to headcannon it, all of it. So lets all say Manari, Horde, Forsaken w/e just kissed and made up, literally. I am going to write a fanfiction right now where the Alliance and Horde just have one big kiss session, say they are sorry and Turalion marries Bain and you are all going to read it AND LIKE IT and it will be cannon.
The end :slight_smile:

You can also apply the genocide that orcs committed. Nelves overwhelmingly outgenocided them.

Idk, i mean, the majority of the Draenei race was exterminated after the Orcish genocide of the Draenei. You sure that’s the case for the trolls, despite the Night Elves never actually genociding them to begin with?

Chronicles I.

Do I really need to link the maps of pre and post Pax Nelfana?
Are you going to belligerently pretend that all of Azeroth is equal or or smaller than Draenei race?

Are you going to belligerently pretend that the Trolls were genocided by the Kaldorei Empire? I’m going to be perfectly blunt – if Azshara actually wanted to genocide the trolls, she absolutely could have. The Kaldorei Empire was the strongest civilization on Azeroth since the Black Empire and quite frankly still is the strongest civilization that’s ever existed since the Black Empire - the Alliance and Horde don’t compete.

If the trolls were genocided by the Night Elves, they’d just simply all be dead. Zandalari, Amani, so on and so forth. None of the tribes would be left standing because the power gap was simply titanic in comparison.

Do you have -anything- in the text that outright explicitly says “The Kaldorei Empire genocided the trolls?”

There is no pretense.
That is fact.
https://imgur.com/a/X06IGSi

Err hold on, this says Queen Azshara, wouldn’t this be the Night Elves who became Naga? Wouldnt the low-born Night Elves it mentions be the Night Elves of today?

Let’s be honest, the man’ari aren’t the only people whom have committed crimes and were absolved of all guilt.

A few perfect examples that come to mind regarding this:

  1. Vanessa VanCleef had a couple of farmers killed because they knew her identity. However, in the Human heritage questline she was redemeed due to having PTSD from fighting the Legion and because she helped stop a contingent of the Defias Brotherhood after they betrayed her.

  2. Maiev Shadowsong killed innocent highborne in Darnassus in the Wolfheart novel and swears vengeance on Malfurion. And how is this followed up in game? It is practically swept under the rug.

  3. Jaina Proudmoore went on a rampage during MoP with The Purge Of Dalaran where many innocent Sunreaver Civillians were killed.

  4. AU Grommash led the Iron Horde against the Draenei slaughtering so many of them, as well as take them in as slaves. But then, they seemingly forgive him at the end of the expansion just because he helped stop Archimonde.

At least in this questline, the man’ari acknowledge their wrongdoings and want to make it right.

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IIRC that’s been retconned or completely ignored by Blizzard

Yea like every warcrime, she has acknowledged in game that it happaned its just swept under the rug

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Every point you raised is another example of bad writing from the plot (point 4 is one reason I mostly don’t sympathize with the Mag’har when they’re targeted in Yrel’s holy war to make AU Draenor not a Death World). Though the crimes of the Man’ari surpass those of the others.

It was NOT retconned.

She murdered innocent, hoping to sever our people’s ties with the [Alliance].

Still, I couldn’t bring myself to kill her.

At first I thought I’d been weak – that love had left me unable to do what was necessary.

  • So why are you trying to save her?*

I know my sister. She’d never commit such crimes unless she was under some foul influence.

Even so, rather than investigate fully, I assumed the worst.

I’ve been a poor brother, but there’s still time for me to make things right.

  • I’ll help you find Maiev.
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