I absolutely detest Thrall and here is why

Lore Story Forum
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I think the wierdness comes from our understanding of nature being something that is not artificial, which we associate with the Titan constructs. Thus, we see the emerald dream and everything that flows from that now, post chronicle, as artificial.

I think the better way to look at it in a post chronicle environment is nature is a stand in not for “natural” but life. Same with the dream, hence it taking that portion of the cosmology. Nature counterintuitively does not equate to naturally occurring phenomena in WoW but it does equate to life energy.

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62

That’s kind of the definition of nature, yeah.

My point being more-so that they just shouldn’t use the word natural incorrectly in their writing.

63

I think we are talking past each other then.

My point is Warcraft does not use nature in the same context we do. Especially since I doubt blizzard is going to change their definition anytime soon.

It is better for us to adapt to understand when they use nature thay mean life, as opposed to death/undeath. That is the axis for wow’s cosmology, rather than our normal view of what nature represents.

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64

the only thing that I detest Thrall is that he build his Orc capital, Orgrimmar in a bloody desert…Durotar…
I understand the sentiment of repent for the horrid his people did…but to make his people suffer through hardship which resulted in war with neighbors is stupid…
there’s plenty ways of repent…especially to the native of Azeroth…but making your own people suffer and not helping those people that the Orcs brutalized is dumb…

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I understand their meaning. I’m saying misusing a definition in such a fashion in writing is wrong. Whether or not I can make sense of it later doesn’t mean I need to approve of it. Whether or not they will change their use doesn’t mean I don’t think they shouldn’t.

Durotar, as has been said, could sustain life. It had tree, it had plenty of fresh water. It had some trees (which were partly cleared out by Daelin). More-so things were significantly worsened in The Shattering, plus mismanagement by Garrosh, that caused bigger issues.

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66

Fair, but that’s a normative argument, one that while I can understand, may cause narrative dissonance. But as they say, you do you

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is it? if my memory is right…Durotar was barren land with spontaneous of trees and cactus…there’s no farming or agriculture system at all and the only form of gathering is hunting games to sustain life in Durotar…

From wowpedia…Durotar…

The land of Durotar is rocky, and the soil is cracked and red, not unlike the orcs’ homeland of Draenor. The land has many crags and canyons, where dangerous creatures take residence. It is a harsh land to survive in; it is very dry and hot, and the vegetation is sparse. The orcs, however, see a harsh beauty in the land. Durotar is a proving ground for young orcs, who are sent to the Valley of Trials to complete several rites of passage before they are considered fit for the challenges that lie ahead. Durotar is the new homeland of the orcs and the site of the orcs’ principal city of Orgrimmar

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It was certainly sparse, but it was sustainable. Which is fairly important. Harsh and unlivable are two different things.

The preface throughout The Shattering is basically ‘wow, this made things significantly worse and we’re now being pushed to extremes.’

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69

but any civilization that build their society through hunting games or bare minimum agriculture is unsustainable…civilization that relate on hunting is basically a nomad tribe…having to move around to hunt for more…
its only through farming or agriculture that is the ideal sustaining system that can sustain society or even grow it bigger…
Azshara, just north of Durotar make a better choice…with fertile land that can support agriculture…

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This is a fictional fantasy game. So again, in the lore, seemed sustainable. Though they probably traded with the Tauren anyway for benefit.

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71

This is my point… But a good chunk of the Horde player base want to call the orcs Nature loving. Typically as a means to support Horde Aligning Night Elves… Which, look, I agree the Night Elves don’t fit in with the Alliance, but the Horde is even a farther stretch. Hell, the Tauren by themselves already feel a bit out of place with the Horde.

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Historically true, perhaps, but in this fantasy world, the Night Elves lived 10,000 years without disease, hunger or poverty, without any sort of agriculture. Ironically, non-nelf players would say the Night Elves stagnates at this time, even though 10,000 of relative peace and prosperity is anything but stagnate, and its at that point you realize that the means most people measure progress is the technological dominance of nature.

73

Then again, nature also means a different thing in WoW then what we refer to it as. It’s Chi, or spirit energy, and orc Shamans have more spirit energy then any race native to Azeroth. Dreanor didn’t have a world soul, so it was much more harmonious and as a result in that sense Shamanism is more ‘natural’ in that it can tap life energy even without the aid of a titan creation like the Emerald Dream.

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That’s not true.

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I’m not sure about that. Draenor had a lot of spirit energy, but Azeroth was said to have the Most of any world the Titans had ever seen, which explains why Azeroth would be the most powerful Titan.

If we’re going by the energy of the world, races native to Azeroth would have the Orcs beat.

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I mean Thrall was able to wield something that nothing other then the Titans themselves could because he was such a powerful shaman, orcs have had time to refine their ability to wield spirit in ways other races have not.

Also Vexander that’s true, but keep in mind the World Soul EATS spirit energy. This is why the Elementals on Azeroth are wilder then on Dreanor when if anything Shamanism should be more commonplace here, but because it’s all feeding into the titan the elements in Azeroth are not harmonious.

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I mean, I think the entire discussion is a bit off point. Shamanism isn’t exactly nature loving, but typically it heavily coincides with it. Espousing aspects of living in harmony with natural aspects such as elementals when possible.

But more relevant is that nature just isn’t necessarily a great way to judge something. So whether or not shamanism inherently respects all nature isn’t terribly meaningful. If the natural order (such as on Draenor) would result in a barren rock, seems fine to oppose it.

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78

Thrall is also Metzen’s personal Mary-Sue green Jesus, so I hardly consider him a valid template for his idiot, expantionist, war mongering, fel corrupted race. Also, consider that the Orcs are the decedents of a Titan Creation. If I recall correctly, they are the eventual decedents of an Earth Elemental that Aggramar carved from Dreanors earth to prevent to domination of the Evergrowth. Grond.

So it’s not really true to say Orc shamanism was anymore Natural than Azeroths, or that somehow the Emerald Dream is somehow less natural than the lack there off. There is also no evidence to support that Orcs can tap into more life energy than other races, when there are people like Malfurion who would eat Thrall for breakfast, and other Night Elf, Tauren, Troll and Worgen druids who have a much stronger draw on natural magic than orcs… Note, the orcs are the only ones to resort to Dark Shamanism.

I would put money on a Tauren or Troll Shaman before any Orc.

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79

Trolls, Tauren, and Centaur have as well.

80

Nope. Centaur maybe, but I doubt it.