P2W requires that you are getting something with real money you couldn’t reasonably get in game, otherwise you aren’t actually winning now are you. That’s not the case in WoW even with RMT.
WoW is not P2W game.
You cannot buy gear via the shop
You cannot buy EXP/REP from the shop
You are not required in anyway to pay more than a sub for this game.
Unfortunately people have really, really weak definitions of P2W
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That has historically not been the case and I question whether anyone who actually believes this has been playing online games since before 2010. I find it hard to believe anyone who has seen many online game releases prior to the microtransaction era of gaming would not remember the outrage that people have had at ANY form of cash shop.
Its legit depressing that gaming companies have normalized microtransactions to the point that we have even lost the concept of what P2W is. I guess we’re now at a point where people just take the term extremely literally and just try to argue what winning is.
Cash shops are not inherently P2W and noone was ever claiming they were if it was just cosmetic items. What people were upset about was paying for things they felt should be included with the base purchase, which is an entirely different complaint than P2W.
P2W, freemium etc started cropping up when mobile gaming became big and companies realized they could cash in “free” games with micro transactions that really were you pay to win. Common P2W tactics are things like time gating that can be circumvented, RNG boxes you can get extra shots at, flat power etc… none of which apply in WoW.
Pay 2 win would be for example buying say Starshard Edge MK2 off a cash shop.
Starshard Edge MK2 $49.99
1h Dagger
+100 Stamina
+100 Intellect
+100 Spirit
3 open red sockets
Improves hit rating by 100
Increases spell power by 1000
VS
No matter how much someone played the game they would NEVER reach the player power of someone who bought that weapon off the cash shop.
That is by definition pay2win.
This watered down version yall use can be applied to every MMO.
You also dont need to beat a boss or step into a raid for MK2 you just swipe, gdkp you still raid, you still have to kill the boss and do the mechanics at the same difficulty of everyone else and you still have to hope it drops.
Huge difference.
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Until players can just buy power from the shop this game will not be P2W.
Hell FF14 is more P2W using some of these posters metrics, and its just skips and cosmetics.
Yoshi P real cringe with it too.
You can buy a level skip to the previous max level but youre still responsible to go back and do the FULL main story quests.
I mean the full story of all the old xpacs starting at level1, you will be level 80 doing the full story starting at level 1.
But dont worry Yoshi P also sells Main Story quest skips!
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If WoW did not have tokens and cross game trading it would not fit the criteria for even my quite broad definition of p2w.
There is no “official” definition for p2w and I despise yours because it attempts to draw a line that is so easy to tiptoe around that it allows game companies to get away with absolutely unethical practices.
By your definition, if starshard edge (the regular one) was an item that was only obtainable after grinding for an estimated 5000 hours or you can buy it for $20, would that be p2w?
I mean it was already mentioned about skipping massive grinds as a form of pay 2 win.
I believe Ziryus mentioned it.
I didnt mention it in my example because that doesnt exist in wow.
Like diablo immortal best gems.
So 5000 hours of ulduar in my 3 hour raid is 1,666 Ulduar clears for the weapon.
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Then the question is what qualifies as a “massive grind”? You have to draw a line somewhere and that line is probably going to move all the time depending on the game, the item, the price, the playerbase, etc.
It is far easier and more effective to simply use a broad definition and simply label different p2w practices on how ethical they are individually rather than simply try to draw a single line and say “this side good, this side bad”.
I mean 1,666 Ulduar clears is 32 years of Ulduar, id consider that massive.
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Yeah, the skips are super compartmentalized to require more than one purchase and given how jobs work in that game, can be real tedious and expensive.
IMO, WoW having the squishes in level that they roll out every three or so expansions has helped with keeping those types of micro transactions away from WoW. Imagine having to level to max in retail and having to do each expansion to get there. Players would fall off quickly, just like a lot of my friends in FF14 who didn’t want to buy a skip and level MSQ til cap.
Of course because any reasonable person would. But would you consider 500 hours massive? 100? 50? 20?
Where is the line and does that line change if the item is suddenly no longer starshard edge but turning tide or life and death?
Its hard to quantify because you have outside sources at play.
Its a raid, you have to raid to get it and you also have to win it.
I mean you could start a HR group and HR it week 1.
You can raid ina guild and get it week 1.
You can SR it and get it week 1.
You can go to a gdkp and get it week 1.
You can join a MS>OS and roll a 100 week 1.
Issue with p2w is if it truly is why is there this many options to be able to obtain it for free?
It takes a couple hours of dailies a week to do enough dailies to have more than enough gold for raid consumes/enchants/gems. That is by no measure a “massive grind”. All the drops are equally available beyond that regardless of how much gold you have. The weekly lockouts are universal, drops and drop rates are universal, the bosses are universal.
If Blizzard really wanted to turn this game into P2W they had the best opportunity to do so when personal loot was the default loot choice and they could have put bonus rolls in the cash shop like 3/19.99. They didnt. WoW simply is not P2W
Like a true GATCHA game
“luckily” they’d rather have us grind those types of tokens.
Gold buying really isnt p2w, simple explanation, it “removes” 1 layer of rng. Long explanation, its not like if you go in with a mountain of gold youll leave full bis, the item the person wants still has to drop, even then if someone else wants it more they can bid more, and maybe the item they want they arent willing to pay that much. The only thing it removes is a random dice roll. You have more control over if an item if it drops.
I understand this is a WoW forum, but its actually incredibly annoying that I’m sitting here trying to argue about the overall term of p2w in general gaming and only barely using WoW as a simplified example and it just jumps right back into “well look at these specific WoW cases”.
This is a specific case only in WoW and doesn’t address the overall question. Where is the line for a massive grind? Does that line change based on relevance to your character? Does that line change based on how hardcore you are or how competitive the game is?
Of course nobody in their right mind is going to say WoW is some egregious p2w game. Even with my extremely broad definition it is barely skirting the line of being one of the most ethical p2w mmos around. But that doesn’t change the fact that trying to use a narrow definition of p2w like you guys carries the risk of allowing game companies to try to play around with that line and move gaming in the direction of the more shameless examples of p2w like Diablo Immortal.