I don’t know what “the Horde” means in this context?
By all appearances, Saurfang’s Horde is going to ‘win’ by defeating Sylvanas, AND claim the moral high ground for themselves by virtue of being marginally less genocidal. Orc players don’t have to bargain for this, as always Blizzard will provide for them.
It’s the rest of us who have to worry.
what makes you say that?
I am honestly puzzled by this statement.
Its not just about the “level” its about the progressive increase to this level.
First we had cataclysm where large portions of Alliance regions were on fire due to the Horde. (Lets not even consider all the regions on fire due to NPCs, Elements or just plain unrevamped compared to Horde regions).
So by all accounts Alliance loses multiple posts, some of them extremely iconic like Southshore.
Then by MoP we start off by one of the most major settlements Theramore outside of capital cities blasted by the Horde (compounded by what is happened in Cataclysm).
Theramore was the sole major hub of the Alliance in southern Kalimdor where a lot of players had lore and use for. Its loss was at a why bigger scale to what happened in Cataclysm.
Finally you now have Teldrassil, the worst loss ever.
And you have all the baggage from Cataclysm like Gilneans losing the little tree within the big tree.
Jaina losing her anti-Horde stance for… whatever reason.
Night Elves revenge being reduced to one Val’kyr we did not know the name of until the scenario began. Not to mention they had to trade some of their own to the Horde to even get that far.
The Horde is untouchable.
Plain and simple.
From the Alliance perspective the Horde can do anything it wants and still get away with it because “reasons” or simply their ‘victimhood’ is a much more serious concern to Blizzard than the Alliance player.
The Horde ‘suffering’ is entirely subjective if you were a Garrosh/Sylvanas fanboy the whole villain bat journey is a joy to play through and the only inconvenience are the “Yo this is evil” projecting and the ending where you ultimately get a slap on the wrist.
If you are the Honor Horde you have to put up with the evil the entire expansion but in the end you are completely vindicated.
The Alliance player’s sole solace is “hey at least I am not a bad guy, my leaders suck but its something” and this can only go so far until that player is so frustrated that they don’t even care about being the “good guy” they just want some retribution.
You know, I really wish I knew what kind of loss it is we’d get, but just seeing from the context of this story, the Horde is not coming out of it unscathed or stronger in any way.
I just think if the Horde is going to lose, we might as well have something to gain out of it, rather than a short-term morality boost from Sadfang and Baine for the #honor crowd and a kick in the face for the #ruthlessness crowd, we actually gain a strong long-term morality re-alignment for the faction that makes sense for all the races involved, so it can move forward without resorting to the path of the Saturday morning cartoon villains.
At the end of MoP, Vol’jin was the chance to adjust the factions’ status quo to suit that of the other races of the Horde besides the “muh honor” orc crowd and they straight up blew it by killing him off for no reason, and putting someone even worse than Garrosh in charge instead.(I’d take the xenophobe over the mass murderer any day)
So in a world in which the Horde should have very little chance by now to be allowed it’s continued existence, I just think the Horde needs to set itself up for a long-term comeback in both the morality and power fantasy department.
Blizzard games have fairly basic pattern when it comes to morality alignment, If characters are being openly unhinged and evil, they must die or be punished in some way.(Zoltun Kulle and Leoric; Diablo) If they’re being good or putting in effort to make amends for previous crimes, they get to live with little more than a slap on the wrist.(Sarah Kerrigan; Starcraft)
To put it briefly; Horde simply needs to stop being “morally grey” for awhile.(like, 2 consecutive expansions)
Folks, remember who died the same time as Vol’jin.
As much as Sylvanas was put in to place to be an undead drama-bomb, the on-again-off-again belligerent Varian was deaded, and the most exalted neutral good guy in the setting was put in charge of the Alliance. It would be dramatically out of character for Anduin to prosecute a war against the Horde beyond Sylvanas, and in fact has already said in game effectively such.
The only real questions are how the Sylvanas issue will be resolved (defeat|victory|durhur we are free) and how much of the Horde she throws in front of her while we watch the spectacle of her edge-lordiness.
I don’t think a post-Sylvanas conflict (I mean, it is possible they could end it with "don’t sweat the genocide guys, she was doing 4d chess for the good of Azeroth and remains warchief) will end with any additional ill effect on the Horde at all, and frankly, nor should it.
Additionally, the resistance to Sylvanas began much sooner than with Garrosh. Garrosh was ham-fisted much of the time, but swathed himself in patriotism, and frankly, had a much better casus belli than Sylvanas. A portion of the Horde’s rejection of Sylvanas is happening both sooner in the conflict with the Alliance, as well as being based in a rejection of the nature of her actions, while much of the revolt against Garrosh was based in his turning on the Horde itself.
TLDR- the war is more about Sylvanas than anything else going on. If she is removed from the war by whatever means for good or ill, the thing evaporates.
Of course I could do, it’s very easy to remember Varian’s death due to the immense contrast between the amount of emotional impact it had in comparison to Vol’jins.
While Varian had an incredibly powerful last act of heroisim, sacrificing his life to save not only the lives of his soldiers, the Alliance, and to buy the world another day to fight. Even when he knew he was not going to make it out, he took out a massive fel reaver, and multiple demon soldiers until he was ultimately overwhelmed by their endless forces. Even his last words were essentially to look the embodiment of evil dead in the eye and telling it to go collectively f*%$ itself. Heck, even after his death, he was still able to pass on a very important lesson to his son that he’d carry to this day. He easily has the most well-handled death in the entire franchise.
If anything, no one can deny that Anduin had a fairly strong coming of age arc.
As for Vol’jin, he essentially got there, punched a demon in the face, then got 1-shotted by a trash mob wielding plot poison, and then spent his last few hours showering undeserved praise on Sylvanas for blowing a horn that she very well could’ve done from the beginning, then used his last breath to put her on a pedestal that she in no way earned either through her deeds nor through her own characters progression. To add additional insult to injury, his death carried no emotional weight whatsoever. He died, we burned his body, and that’s the last he’s mentioned for the rest of the expansion. He was in one ear and out the other, a horrible disservice to his character that only served to push forward another character who doesn’t even need the expense of another character to push.(Sylvanas is an INCREDIBLY popular character)
There’s literally nothing at this point that can be done to the Horde that hasn’t already been done. They were already greatly weakened at the end of MoP, given a chance to restore their factions’ honor in light of their new leader being Vol’jin, given land so that they’d no longer need to aggress upon the Night Elves, ect. So it would just be seen as incredibly stupid for the Alliance to do any of those things again, since the Horde clearly didn’t learn its’ lesson from last time. However, the problem is that anything harsher would probably lead the the faction becoming defunct or seen as a vassal of the Alliance. Which would not work at all in a two-faction setting, in which both factions are sold as being around equal.(which we all know they aren’t right now)
Of course it’s all about Sylvanas, that’s why it’s nigh impossible to have ANY Horde faction pride unless its out of pure infatuation for Sylvanas. Any other reason to care about this war is moot.
As much as either side could afford to ‘lose’, the narrative has been written in such a way that the Horde ‘losing’ just means Sylvanas being defeated and control of the Horde reverting back to Thrall and his ilk.
On the plus side for you OP, that will mean the story will be written in such a way as the Horde regains their ‘moral integrity’, but you only get half of what you wish. Instead of the Tauren holding the dwarves to account, the Zandalari seeking revenge for Rastakhan, or anything like that all those grievances will be swept under the rug in the name of peace and cooperation between the Horde and Alliance.
In short, a Horde defeat ends with all grievances being pardoned and all parties still seeking retribution being villainized in perpetuity in the name of the preservation of peace, regardless of how righteous their cause may be.
We should all be praying that the story in BFA ends with something other than a conclusive defeat of the Horde, otherwise both Horde and Alliance players are just going to be merrily taking quests from those we would rather see dead to go and murder those we believe to be in the right for the rest of the game.
Not … really? It depends on how Blizz approaches this, but the introduction of the Horde Allied Races have finally opened up an opportunity to build up a more inclusive foundation for the faction than what it was before (which was essentially the WC3 races with the others loosely stapled on). The addition of the ARs puts more emphasis on the differences of each core race (which strengthens the all of them on a RACIAL level; but really could work to weaken the WC3 races on a political level … since now they aren’t some homogenized mass).
On the other hand … there is plenty of bad blood to point to in the Horde, but the BEs and Zandalari isn’t really among that. The Quel’Thalas elves have deep contentions with the AMANI; not the Zandalari. The Pandarens are unlikely to ever hold a grudge (considering what happened to the Horde Houjin). The Bilgewater are actually the race that should despise the Zandalari (considering the Goblins were enslaved by the Golden Trolls). Lets not even get into the Orc issues… Its a mass of prior contentions and conflicts … that could result in a functional whole.
Just have the Horde broken down to its foundation in BfA and build a new one that is more inclusive to ALL of its participants. Finally kill any illusions that the WC3 Horde will ever come back; and build something ideologically true to Thall’s Horde (but thematically and aesthetically new and fresh to fit all its peoples). I’ve long grown sick of this Anti-Forsaken/Anti-Elf nonsense anyway.
Troll Wars, my friend. The Zandalari took part in it and really made it possible for the Amani to have a chance at winning.
Meh … I’m uncertain the Zandalari using the Amani as cannon fodder really places them on the same level as the contention between the Amani and Quel’thalas. The Horde race that should have the greatest contention with the Zandalari are the Bilgewater, and if they don’t care enough to worry about it … the BEs don’t have room to complain (especially with Zul and Rastakhan dead).
What makes the current Horde interesting IS in fact the diversity that comprises it. The WC3 Horde being a thing of the past (and the Forsaken moving on from their “Alliance of Convenience” temperament) are really the last two major thematic things in the way of the Faction forming into something unique, cohesive, and new. In a weird way, the Horde is in its terrible teens right now (literally and figuratively) … but these are the developmental years … who knows what form the faction could take with just the right foundation?
According to the Chronicles, the Zandalari were the architects behind the Troll Wars. They saw it as their sacred responsibility to strengthen troll societies across the world. They used their refined voodoo and brought the Loa into the conflict to fight the elves. They also united the Amani Empire by selecting the troll to rule and lead them; Jintha.
And yet, the architects behind both the Troll Wars AND the Pandaren Incursion (Zul and Rastakhan) are both dead; and have been replaced with a forward thinking idealist who actually commended Vol’jin’s decisions regarding the Troll Wars. Yes, it was the Zandalari that pushed the Amani into their behavior … but it was still the Amani that acted upon that dogmatic ideology (and … it is also the Amani that have the long bloody history with the Elves of Quel’thalas).
With Talanji at the helm (and the beatings the Zandalari have taken) I really cant see a lot lasting issues lingering between the Elves and Trolls of the Horde. Its probably part of WHY Blizz decided to build up Talaanji in the first place; to avoid these … questionable issues stemming from Rastakhan and Zul’s continued troll leadership.
OP, where was your “moral integrity” when you were out there murdering innocent animals for their body parts and skins?
Moral integrity is a complex topic. What is YOUR definition of moral integrity?
I don’t think Zul or Rastakan were alive for the Troll Wars. They were over 3,000 years ago. Rastakan was the oldest living troll at about 300.
Oh, true. Still … the Amani were the weapons used in that conflict.
If the Goblins can overlook that issue (and the BEs can ally with the Darkspear for all these years) … I just don’t see it being a problem thats too big to overcome with the current Zandalari. After all, these aren’t the same trolls from 3k years ago.
Doesn’t have to be the same trolls from 3,000 years ago, considering they tried the same thing in Cataclysm…
And they got their teeth kicked in and THAT time it WAS Zul and Rastakhan that were behind it (and they are both dead now).
True but it seems a fair indication that the Zandalari haven’t exactly changed their minds about things. Even with Talanji in charge, the belves should be pretty wary about the Zandalari. I mean, imagine if this whole war ends and Talanji decides to take up the position of Warchief. The Zandalari navy has been decimated but they have resource rich lands, powerful Loa, and dinosaur cavalry and aerial support. There should be a real concern that the Zandalari would take control of the Horde and start parceling out pieces of Quel’Thalas to the Amani with the justification of the elves being so reduced in population that they can’t even defend all their lands without support.
Who in the Horde would even question that if it were to come to pass? It doesn’t affect most of the Horde and might even get the Horde more allies.
Talaanji seems to be the first Zandalari leader in ages that doesn’t have illusions about the miserable state the Troll Empires are in. She does at least seem to have a good head on her shoulders (not just that giant hat), and she seems to firmly understand the precarious position her civilization really is (more now than ever before). That being said … I REALLY doubt that she’s being built up to be our Warchief (she’s too new and has too many issues at home to still settle).
The BEs should truly come to understand that for the first time in maybe elvish history they at least have ONE hand on the steering wheel of the Trolls; it would be very unwise of them let that hand go out of being overly paranoid (and 3k year old grudges).
It was a hypothetical, but one which I would imagine a bunch of paranoid and proud elves to entertain when their mortal nemesis joins their faction with hardly any input from them.
That illusion was dispelled when Talanji made it clear she see’s herself as an equal to Sylvanas. A Queen bows to no one. Haven’t seen Lor’themar make anywhere near that kind of overture. Its obvious the Zandalari are in the Horde in positions far superior to that of the belves, and when Sylvanas is gone, who comes into power and what their agenda will be should be something that gives Quel’Thalas pause.
Talaanji exercising the political authority she has at her disposal was something that should be commended; not scorned (and ideologically it is what the Horde was meant to be. An Alliance of Equal Kingdoms, not subservient ones).
Its interesting, if you do all the AR quests back to back each of the Horde AR Reps quote various traits the Horde once theoretically had under Thrall’s vision of the Faction. Talaanji quotes the traits of “Equality” and “Autonomy”, and its the one time Sylvie cannot retort with the oppressive themes of “Submission”; “Blind Loyalty”; and “Obedience” like she does with the previous three AR Reps.
EDIT: Within the AR quests themselves … its as if Blizz is reinforcing just how poorly she represents the Faction she currently leads. Its part of the reason I actually would prefer the Kelfin over the Vulpera as the Gob AR (as it would continue this AR theme).