Huge nerf to solo/outdoor gear progression in DF Season 1

[Sôsari-dalaran]

Clear that goalposts and arguments will just keep moving. He wants equal rewards for time played regardless of content or difficulty.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

Remember the vanilla honor system? Skill didn’t really matter there, just time invested relative to other players.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

Remember the vanilla honor system?

Yeah it was really just who could farm BGs the longest. The difference back then was that skill was the determining factor. I remember beating a Grand Marshal with only T1 gear on.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

There are skill differences that no amount of gear will be able to overcome.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Sôsari-dalaran

I have countered them so you now just refer to it as “elitist reasoning” as a method to end the conversation.

You only seem able to refute my arguments with elitist ideals about what content should offer what rewards. WoW—or any other MMO —is not bound to your rules that solo players must be punished simply because they are solo, or that the open world can only be a stepping stone to instanced content and not an endgame.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

At a baseline level, this is objectively false.

Try again. Heroic raiding iLvl from outdoor PvP events and quests in BfA beats any outdoor gear in SL.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

You mean the way it works in SL? and the 1st 3 seasons of BFA?

You already know that M+ players can obtain base Mythic raid iLvl through the Vault. Stop being facetious.

@Horrid-illidan

Genuinely would not care so long as the content was tuned where it was doable. I have 3 toons that are easily doing 15+'s right now. None of them are max geared anyway.

You might be fine, but I can guarantee you that the M+ community would be in an uproar. Getting nerfed relative to other gearing methods could make anyone feel disgruntled. That doesn’t mean that they are entitled.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

So your argument is that you want more gear so you can solo content that’s tuned for 3-5 people?

No. So many posters are claiming that gear doesn’t matter in the open world, when we all know very well that it does. Gear allows you to do more and do it faster.

@Sôsari-dalaran

You can tag and pull 1,000,000 rats, but that doesn’t mean anything.

It means everything if I can loot and skin them. Or if I enjoy pulling all those rats.

@Sôsari-dalaran

I mean do the math for me. I have timed over 1,000 keys this expansion. How many mobs is that?

I don’t know. But I can assure you that better gear allowed your team to kill the mobs faster and time the keys better.

How can hardcore players be so obsessed with power progression in their content, but when it comes to the open world suddenly the laws of mathematics don’t apply and gear doesn’t matter?!

[Vialdkaseun-muradin]

Totally need something better than lfr gear to progress through open world content. Kekw.

[Horrid-illidan]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Getting nerfed relative to other gearing methods could make anyone feel disgruntled. That doesn’t mean that they are entitled.

M+ ilvl was nerfed for DF. I’ll still do 16’s and get -6 from max ilvl gear, and not care. Or I’ll push 20’s if I’m able to/feel like trying. But I accept that I’ll have to play to whatever gear I want within the avenues the game offers.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Heroic raiding iLvl from outdoor PvP events and quests in BfA

AHh, you mean the thing that was added in the 2nd half of a season, then never got updated? Or AOO which lasted from that same point then got nerfed the very next patch, and was only ever available to alliance?

By that logic, The SL equivilant to the faction invasions would still be dropping 213 gear.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Eleusia-myzrael

You only seem able to refute my arguments with elitist ideals about what content should offer what rewards.

You can call it whatever you want, but it just sounds like a cop out because you have no other way to dispute it. You have changed your arguments several times now and back peddled on multiple points. You cannot give a justifiable reason for your demands other than saying players have a right to progression, even though that directly contradicts another point you made about accepting that progression paths have different end points. Just because players put time into something, does not mean they should earn the same thing.

@Sôsari-dalaran

@Eleusia-myzrael

Open world players will pull more mobs

You can tag and pull 1,000,000 rats, but that doesn’t mean anything. I mean do the math for me. I have timed over 1,000 keys this expansion. How many mobs is that?

Here is another goal post that was disputed and conveniently ignored. See how your response attempts to evade the question with another question? Talking about killing mobs faster when you know full well that end-game content scales to be more difficult as you progress.

@Sôsari-dalaran

@Eleusia-myzrael

LFR iLvl is a nerf and an insult, and you know it.

You act like solo content is the only progression path being revamped. M+ is seeing major changes as well.

Another goal post where you talk about nerfed loot being an insult. When I bring up M+ loot revamp, you ignore that too.

[Snozy-thrall]

@anon91696177

That said, some folks are stuck in the perception that a multi-player game requires cooperative play…it does not

If you want heroic and up ilvl gear it DOES require group play in WoW.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

You quite literally spent the entire day on the forums arguing. Claiming to have been forced into “friction”. Yet, still putting yourself in the same situation for hours on end.

[Grimoire-stormrage]

@Eleusia-myzrael

The open world has enemies.

They sale.

You dont need better gear for that. Dont claim you do. My alt has never had an issue doing anything “open world” or felt “underpowered” and shes in 233 AH gear with a 229 weapon.

This is clearly a case of “its shiny and I want it”

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Horrid-illidan

M+ ilvl was nerfed for DF. I’ll still do 16’s and get -6 from max ilvl gear, and not care. Or I’ll push 20’s if I’m able to/feel like trying.

Yes, M+ gearing was nerfed in a way, considering that you will have to do harder keys to receive the same rewards you have been getting until now.

@Horrid-illidan

But I accept that I’ll have to play to whatever gear I want within the avenues the game offers.

And at least the M+ ceiling has been raised for players that do rise to the challenge. The ceiling has been lowered for open world players, on the other hand.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

AHh, you mean the thing that was added in the 2nd half of a season, then never got updated?

You could get Conquest outdoors by doing the faction assaults in warmode, looting the War Supply Cache that fell from the sky (Nazjatar and base zones each had separate daily lockout), doing Battle for Nazjatar, killing Bounties, or doing the Call to Arms quests.

All activities continued rewarding Conquest up until 8.3, even if the contents themselves were not updated.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

Or AOO which lasted from that same point then got nerfed the very next patch, and was only ever available to alliance?

AOO in BfA awarded a chunk of Azerite Power and a piece of Normal raid iLvl PvE (warfront?) gear, if I recall correctly.

AOO in SL awards Anima and Conquest—but not even enough to buy one PvP item, so it was sort of a downgrade compared to BfA.

“A New Deal” in SL awards 3000 Honor, but Honor gear is LFR iLvl in PvE, so it is still a downgrade compared to BfA.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

By that logic, The SL equivilant to the faction invasions would still be dropping 213 gear.

No, we would be getting a full set of 291 base Heroic raid iLvl gear in Season 4 (ignoring the issue of PvE/PvP iLvl scaling).

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Eleusia-myzrael

You could get Conquest outdoors by doing the faction assaults in warmode

That is what gave you the S1 heroic item, that never got updated. It was still 370 in ny’alotha.

@Eleusia-myzrael

War Supply Cache that fell from the sky (Nazjatar and base zones each had separate daily lockout)

Gave aspirant gear. In BFA S4, that was 425, when LFR was 430. The S3 versions got squished down to ilvl 60, when the old ilvl 400 (LFR EP) became ilvl 72.

@Eleusia-myzrael

doing Battle for Nazjatar

Gave nazjatar battle commendations and maybe manapearls. No direct gear for winning or participation.

@Eleusia-myzrael

killing Bounties, or doing the Call to Arms quests.

again, aspirant gear.

@Eleusia-myzrael

No, we would be getting a full set of 291 base Heroic raid iLvl gear in Season 4

The only time world pvp gave gear equal to the heroic raids was the BFA S1 faction invasions, and pre-nerf AOO. AOO got squished down to normal the following patch, and the faction invasion rewards were not updated, and remained at 370 for the rest of the expansion. The SL equivalent ilvl is 213, heroic CN.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Sôsari-dalaran

You have changed your arguments several times now and back peddled on multiple points.

There are multiple arguments for providing progression to open world players, and at times I may give a different argument depending on what another poster said. I have never backpedaled on the fact that this progression should be provided, though.

@Sôsari-dalaran

You cannot give a justifiable reason for your demands other than saying players have a right to progression, even though that directly contradicts another point you made about accepting that progression paths have different end points.

I have given multiple justifications for providing Normal raid iLvl or even higher for open world players, but none of them satisfied you because you have these hard rules in your head about not rewarding solo players and not rewarding players for doing easier content.

I do agree that progression paths should have different end points, but LFR iLvl is too low of an endpoint for outdoor content considering that outdoor progression is the only truly solo option, and outdoor progression used to be capped at Normal or Heroic raid iLvl.

@Sôsari-dalaran

Just because players put time into something, does not mean they should earn the same thing.

Open world players should not expect the exact same rewards. But this is a subscription-based MMORPG, and it needs to be designed to reward players’ time investment.

WoW needs to care about sub numbers again.

@Sôsari-dalaran

Here is another goal post that was disputed and conveniently ignored. See how your response attempts to evade the question with another question? Talking about killing mobs faster when you know full well that end-game content scales to be more difficult as you progress.

I evaded nothing.

Getting stronger gear matters when you want to kill mobs. Killing mobs matters for almost content in WoW. The goalpost is the same.

The fact that open world content doesn’t scale up is a moot point. Normal raids don’t scale up either, if that’s all your guild clears—what are you going to, not let guilds keep any gear upgrades if they don’t proceed to Heroic difficulty?

Gear upgrades matter for any content that involves actual gameplay with your character. You are trying to create special rules that apply only to solo players or open world content.

Even if open world content doesn’t scale up, my character can.

@Sôsari-dalaran

Another goal post where you talk about nerfed loot being an insult. When I bring up M+ loot revamp, you ignore that too.

I have posted in other threads that I don’t like the fact that +10s and higher are going to scale more harshly.

+20s are going to provide higher iLvl rewards than ever, but are probably going to be incredibly difficult, and may force M+ players to do Mythic raiding to stay competitive.

So yes, M+ could be changing for the worse for players that have until now just liked to clear +15s and get their max possible rewards.

But the power progression ceiling for M+ has not been lowered like it has for the open world. If you could talk to Zidormi and port into a more difficult instance of the open world with harder enemies but better rewards, I would gladly give it a try.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Eleusia-myzrael

but LFR iLvl is too low of an endpoint for outdoor content considering that outdoor progression is the only truly solo option

False. You can solo progress your character by crafting next expansion. You have been informed of this previously in this thread, and acknowledged it then. But it is bad for your argument here, so you’re conveniently ignoring it.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Eleusia-myzrael

I have given multiple justifications for providing Normal raid iLvl or even higher for open world players

You actually have not. Your justifications have so far been, player’s rights to gear progression (which again is contradictory to you saying there are multiple gearing paths with different end points) and simply saying that you want it to kill things faster. Those two points are not justifications. I said it before, they are nothing but wish lists.

@Eleusia-myzrael

I do agree that progression paths should have different end points, but LFR iLvl is too low of an endpoint for outdoor content considering that outdoor progression is the only truly solo option, and outdoor progression used to be capped at Normal or Heroic raid iLvl.

Why does solo open-world content need higher ilvl than LFR? Are you unable to complete content with LFR equivalent gear? No, it does not. Your fixation on it needing to be Normal raid or Heroic is not based on anything other than you wanting more than you need.

I have stated that M+ players could also benefit from Mythic raid equivalent gear in a M+, but that is not a justification for them to get it for the difficulty of content.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Open world players should not expect the exact same rewards. But this is a subscription-based MMORPG, and it needs to be designed to reward players’ time investment.

It has been stated that if you choose the solo-progression path, you are also choosing where that progression ends. You are only limiting yourself. The other pathways are always open. This is nothing but a personal choice and living with the consequences. Players are rewarded adequately for the content they are completing.

@Eleusia-myzrael

WoW needs to care about sub numbers again.

We discussed how Blizzard and only Blizzard has access to the required data points to make any sort of determination. We have agreed that Blizzard cares deeply about profits. This leads us to believe they are using their data to lead them in this new direction to make more money.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Getting stronger gear matters when you want to kill mobs. Killing mobs matters for almost content in WoW. The goalpost is the same.

Again, doesn’t mean it’s justified. M+2 players kill mobs faster with Mythic raid loot, doesn’t mean they should get it. LFR raiders would kill bosses faster with Mythic raid loot, doesn’t mean they should get it. Random BGs would benefit from Gladiator gear, but doesn’t mean they should get it. See how that works? My justification applies to all content areas.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

In the time it took for OP To write all of this, he could have done 5 timewalking dungeons and gotten a piece of 278-285 loot.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

Or just listed and filled 4 M0s given that that event was up recently.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

That is what gave you the S1 heroic item, that never got updated. It was still 370 in ny’alotha.

If you did the faction assaults in warmode, each world quest awarded Conquest.

There was a Conquest bar that awarded a piece of PvP gear according to a schedule. In 8.3, Conquest gear was 440 iLvl for the initial weapon, then 445 for armor slots, then 460 eventually for all slots.

The gear rewards from completing the actual assaults were never updated, but the assaults still happened and still awarded Conquest in 8.3.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

Gave aspirant gear. In BFA S4, that was 425, when LFR was 430. The S3 versions got squished down to ilvl 60, when the old ilvl 400 (LFR EP) became ilvl 72.

All of the activities that I mentioned still awarded Conquest up until 8.3, which is how you could get 460 Heroic raid iLvl from the outdoors.

The caches themselves, for example, only awarded low-iLvl Aspirant gear, but they also gave you Conquest on a daily lockout.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

Gave nazjatar battle commendations and maybe manapearls. No direct gear for winning or participation.

Winning the Battle for Nazjatar awarded Conquest. Conquest = gear.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

again, aspirant gear.

Again, Conquest. Conquest = gear.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

The only time world pvp gave gear equal to the heroic raids was the BFA S1 faction invasions, and pre-nerf AOO. AOO got squished down to normal the following patch, and the faction invasion rewards were not updated, and remained at 370 for the rest of the expansion. The SL equivalent ilvl is 213, heroic CN.

I’m starting to think that maybe you didn’t do PvP events in BfA, or PvP at all.

Do you remember the Conquest bar, Conquest schedule, Conquest turn-in NPC, and Conquest weekly cache (bonus Normal iLvl loot in addition to aforementioned Conquest gear)?

Anything that awarded Conquest contributed to earning a full set of 460 iLvl Heroic raid gear. (This is how I five-masked Visions on multiple toons.)

The SL S4 equivalent to that would be 291.