Huge nerf to solo/outdoor gear progression in DF Season 1

[Pigzig-nagrand]

wait till expansion ends
get the catchup gear
play all the content in one month

find a flaw with this plan been doing it for years

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Dartakan-ragnaros

You want a real answer?

He doesn’t want an answer or even a discussion. He’s a broken record that can only talk about fear. Sounds more and more like a troll than anything, and a bad one at that.

@Eleusia-myzrael

here you go again, making up your own rules for why solo players and open world content should be denied progression, when RPG gamers across the board tend to enjoy progression, and gear impacts gameplay in all content.

I’m not denying solo players anything. You and I both agree that solo content has a progression path. We both agree that progression paths end at different point. The part that you can’t wrap your head around and actually talk about is why you think their end-point should be further than LFR. Why do you need Normal? You dodge this question every time. Your only answer has been “It feels good to kill things faster” when that’s not a justification.

@Eleusia-myzrael

So why is it OK for Mythic raiders and key runners to keep getting gear that they don’t technically need after they have beaten their highest difficulty?

Again, this was already answered. M+ loot continues to drop gear according to the difficulty of the content. The exact same as solo-content continuing to drop gear according to the difficulty of the content. Neither instances has gear that stops dropping.

[Luuni-area-52]

Realistically how long would it take someone to farm these pieces?

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

If you have a justification that does not use the words “deserve” or “entitle” or any synonym thereof, please post it again.

Justify the consecutive nerfs to outdoor gear without using the words “need” or “deserve”.

And, do that without comparing open world content to group content, because all of the justifications that elitists have been giving could be used against them in their content as well.

You are basically going to have justify why any game—and a subscription-based MMORPG of all things!—would refuse to offer a player adequate progression.

[Dartakan-ragnaros (Dartakan)]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Justify the consecutive nerfs to outdoor gear without using the words “need” or “deserve”.

And, do that without comparing open world content to group content, because all of the justifications that elitists have been giving could be used against them in their content as well.

You are basically going to have justify why any game—and a subscription-based MMORPG of all things!—would refuse to offer a player adequate progression.

Because is Blizzard’s game and they decide how the reward structure works. They offer more than adequate progression, if you are new player you have +20 levels of m+,4 different raid difficulties and 3 different modes of pvp.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Justify the consecutive nerfs to outdoor gear without using the words “need” or “deserve”.

@Sôsari-dalaran

Has it not occurred to you that since this is the second expansion in a row they are “nerfing” solo world content gear that they actually don’t consider it a pillar of end game?

It’s quite clear Blizzard doesn’t intend for people to sit around in limbo and become as geared as players who actually progress in challenging content.

Patterns are important and Blizzard going from Heroic-BFA to Normal-SL and now LFR-DF is a strong correlation that you are wrong.

This is just the reality whether you like it or not. They want people to participate in actual end game content. If you want to handicap yourself, then by all means, that’s your choice.

You are not gated from completing solo world content because of the LFR cap to your own solo progression path. It would be a different story if it was not possible to continue without higher than LFR gear, but you know that isn’t true.

I pretty much explained it all right here without using the word “need” or “deserve”.

@Sôsari-dalaran

You and I both agree that solo content has a progression path. We both agree that progression paths end at different point. The part that you can’t wrap your head around and actually talk about is why you think their end-point should be further than LFR. Why do you need Normal? You dodge this question every time. Your only answer has been “It feels good to kill things faster” when that’s not a justification.

Still nothing.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Justify the consecutive nerfs to outdoor gear without using the words “need” or “deserve”.

They changed the acquisition method of the max ilvl world stuff from direct drop (or vendor), to crafted by other players (or yourself) to get more people to pay attention to the new crafting and work order system. It’s still there. The warmode world gear got a massive buff compared to SL and BFA for its intended audience.

There is no nerfs here. There are adjustments and buffs.

But also, the burden is on you since you are the one asking for a change to be made.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

They changed the acquisition method of the max ilvl world stuff from direct drop (or vendor), to crafted by other players (or yourself) to get more people to pay attention to the new crafting and work order system. It’s still there.

Which just means we need to see how easy, or difficult, it is for players to get those mats outside of raid/M+/PvP.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Krutz-bleeding-hollow

You can ignore your fear and that’s okay

Better question is why are you so afraid of running a +2 key ?

[Blitzkareeg-area-52 (Blitzkareeg)]

@Lucavitha-area-52

Actually I’m using basic logic for how MMOs are designed to work:

lOGIC FLAWED!

[Raiimir-stormrage]

Oh you’re back. Still waiting on you to comment on the fact Rank 6 Archivist was in fact 28 days.

Any comments Blitzkareeg ? You know, after you said it was impossible and all ?

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Sôsari-dalaran

I pretty much explained it all right here without using the word “need” or “deserve”.

All your argument boils down to here is that the open world is not actual endgame content because Blizzard doesn’t intend for it to be, and WoW players who only want to continue to do open world content are at fault for expecting the golden age of Legion / BfA to continue.

This doesn’t explain why open world progression can’t be endgame for some players, or why it can’t reach as high as of a cap as used to—unless you are trying to argue that it is good for the health of WoW to try and force players into content they are uncomfortable with so that they can experience adequate progression, or let them leave the game.

@Sôsari-dalaran

The part that you can’t wrap your head around and actually talk about is why you think their end-point should be further than LFR. Why do you need Normal? You dodge this question every time.

When a season lasts anywhere from a few months to a year, you need to give all players a noticeable progression experience—and that requires a higher end point for power.

Going from Heroic dungeon iLvl to Normal raid iLvl is potentially twice as much progression (in terms of both time spent and power differential felt) as going from Heroic dungeon iLvl to LFR iLvl.

I know you are going to now say that there is no such thing as progression in world content, but getting stronger relative to the same enemies is in fact power progression for each character. You will be able to take on more enemies at once, and kill them more quickly. LFR iLvls of power are only slightly above the scaling of the enemies, so being able to progress 13 more iLvl above that to Normal raid iLvls of power would provide a noticeable power advantage.

Raiders and M+ players wouldn’t want to play a whole season for a barely noticeable power increase, either. Thought this was obvious, but you keep denying that open world players have gameplay experiences, too, and you seem to need reminding.

@Sôsari-dalaran

Your only answer has been “It feels good to kill things faster” when that’s not a justification.

“It feels good to kill things faster” is a justification for gear progression in any content in WoW, including raids, M+, and PvP.

You keep trying to put open world content in this bubble where the laws of mathematics, and fundamental RPG design, don’t apply.

get stronger gear = kill things faster = have more fun
—This applies to nearly any RPG, including open world players in WoW

[Lucavitha-area-52]

Your welcome to cite the flaw.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

Wow has a vertical progression system. World content has a horizontal progression, as it’s easy to cap out in a few weeks, leaving very little to do.

I get that it’s largely meant as a ramp into match-made content. Wow appeals to a vast swath of different play-styles. I think it’s leaning too hard into the top end, to the detriment of the low end.

I hear you, there are lots of achievement/checklist contents available, but most of it tends to boil down into pointless mind-numbing busywork.

Cosmetic appeal died out the day transmog was introduced.

Sure, adding in game power to other systems might compel competitive people to do that content. Since when is playing the game a bad thing? Why do these people … who want to be the best of the best … seem to hate playing the game so much?

Well, burnout sucks and it used to be limited to the top 50 scene. I get it. CE has been way over-tuned for a while, turning guilds into sweatshops that are also cutthroat. The resulting culture is toxic to the rest of the game.

I’m saying things at the top need to be dialed down a bit, so the bottom can get some gear and have some fun again. The esports crap and RWF, largely ruined the game for casuals.

[Sambouki-malganis]

@Eleusia-myzrael

When a season lasts anywhere from a few months to a year, you need to give all players a noticeable progression experience

All players have the same access to noticeable power progression. Ignoring the content that offers power progression means a player reaches the end of that progress much quicker than someone who engages in content past the leveling and introductory content.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Thought this was obvious, but you keep denying that open world players have gameplay experiences

So a person is entitled to gear because they have….gameplay experiences. Interesting take.

@Eleusia-myzrael

get stronger gear = kill things faster = have more fun

You’re missing a few parts in your equation here.

Level up->group up->gear up->=get stronger gear=kill things faster=have more fun.

If you skip parts of MMO math, your sum is going to be less than what it should be.

@Eleusia-myzrael

open world players in WoW

This isn’t and has never been a viable method for end game gearing. It’s introductory content. You know this.

[Snozy-thrall]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Justify the consecutive nerfs to outdoor gear without using the words “need” or “deserve”.

Awards are based on difficulty of content. World questing is not an endgame pillar.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

We’ve heard your broken record repeat that over and over again. Thanks captain obvious. That might even be the status quo, but it need not be so.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Eleusia-myzrael

All your argument boils down to here is that the open world is not actual endgame content because Blizzard doesn’t intend for it to be, and WoW players who only want to continue to do open world content are at fault for expecting the golden age of Legion / BfA to continue.

That’s correct. If you choose to remain on the path where solo-content ends, then that’s your choice.

1. Leveling
2. Solo-Open World
3. Group Content Open World/Normal Dungeon/Heroic Dungeon/LFR/Random BG
4. M+/Raid/Rated PvP

If you choose to stay on tier 2 then be content with what tier 2 provides. Blizzard set the difficulty and they clearly feel that LFR level gear is rewarding relative to the difficulty of the content.

@Eleusia-myzrael

This doesn’t explain why open world progression can’t be endgame for some players

It does, you just refuse to admit it.

@Eleusia-myzrael

When a season lasts anywhere from a few months to a year, you need to give all players a noticeable progression experience—and that requires a higher end point for power.

They have all the time and opportunities to go beyond tier 2.

@Eleusia-myzrael

“It feels good to kill things faster” is a justification for gear progression in any content in WoW, including raids, M+, and PvP.

It feels good to kill things in M0 faster, but people who only run M0s do not get Normal Raid level loot.

It feels good to kill things in LFR faster, but people who only run LFR do not get Normal Raid level loot.

Do you see how that works?

@Eleusia-myzrael

get stronger gear = kill things faster = have more fun
—This applies to nearly any RPG, including open world players in WoW

Which does happen in your own progression path. Do you start the game with LFR level loot? No, you work your way there while only doing solo content. You are, by definition, getting stronger and killing things faster.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

Eleusia - i’d like things to change for this reason
The opposition - reeee status quo … this is how things are! Do group content, period, stop having fun doing things wrong.

Dude, nobody is confused about how things are, and repeatedly telling people that their experiences and concerns aren’t valid or worth discussing is repugnant.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Angelicus-faerlina

Dude, nobody is confused about how things are, and repeatedly telling people that their experiences and concerns aren’t valid or worth discussing is repugnant

Oh, so exactly what you are doing. You are basically the side sick in this thread. You pop up once in a while with a one or two liner, maybe add a snide comment, without actually adding anything of value. Sounds pretty repugnant to me.

@Angelicus-faerlina

The opposition - reeee status quo

@Angelicus-faerlina

We’ve heard your broken record repeat that over and over again. Thanks captain obvious.

@Angelicus-faerlina

You did a great job of summing up the cancer in wows community in one sentence

@Angelicus-faerlina

Same drivel different words. Fully addressed by the laughter

@Angelicus-faerlina

Dude it’s way past your whittle bedtime.

@Angelicus-faerlina

They are doing it for social reasons, or lack of self control.

@Angelicus-faerlina

were I you … i’d be ashamed of myself

@Angelicus-faerlina

im by far the top oppositional poster.

@Angelicus-faerlina

man these hardsnore folks still threatened by some blokes

@Angelicus-faerlina

you’re a fool

I mean the list literally goes on. All you do are snide comments and insults. You should seriously check yourself first and look in the mirror.