How would you finish Tyrande's story arc?

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

You’re joking, right?

Ok fine, I forgot about Saurfang and Sylvanas walking away. Still it’s insulting to take a race and it’s leader that’s been mostly shoved in the cornor or portrayed as useless, burn down their home, kill off thousands, and then ultimately sacrifice one if it’s leaders and for what?

If you don’t see the value in not isolating an ally in a time of war, especially a war you honestly believe you will lose, then we might as well not waste either of our time discussing this further.

What part of Tyrande fighting with the Nightborne did you miss. That assault was a cooperative effort that Tyrande fully supported. She may not have liked the Nightborne but that didn’t stand in her way of providing aid.

Actually, my stance has been that Tyrande chose to be petty while helping, and she didn’t need to be.

She didn’t need to kiss Thalyssra’s @ss either. The fact is she helped and that’s what matters.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

She didn’t need to kiss Thalyssra’s @ss either.

And nobody said she did, but it’s telling that you think being polite is equivalent to kissing rear.

What part of Tyrande fighting with the Nightborne did you miss.

Y’know, I’m not being obtuse here. I’m not implying Tyrande fought less because of past grievances. I’m not saying she’s a bad character. I’m saying being petty in a time of war is, well, petty. I’m sure you disagree. I’m sure you think pettiness in the face of annihilation is warranted and justified, especially when a potential ally instead becomes an enemy because of your pettiness.

So ultimately, we’ll have to agree to disagree hence forth.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Why are you two arguing about the idiotic narrative that was ham fisted to somehow explain why Nightborne would join the Horde?

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

Why are you two arguing

Hello, and welcome to the Story Forum, where we can find just cause to argue about the color of a dwarf’s beard and somehow turn it into an argument about Sylvannas or Tyrande.

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

Why are you two arguing about the idiotic narrative that was ham fisted to somehow explain why Nightborne would join the Horde?

I feel like Nightborne joining the Horde makes more sense than them joining the Alliance, though. Both options make less sense than them remaining neutral, but \o/

The nature of the Story Forums is to argue ceaselessly. It is the way.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

Y’know, I’m not being obtuse here. I’m not implying Tyrande fought less because of past grievances. I’m not saying she’s a bad character. I’m saying being petty in a time of war is, well, petty. I’m sure you disagree. I’m sure you think pettiness in the face of annihilation is warranted and justified, especially when a potential ally instead becomes an enemy because of your pettiness

You’re trying to balance Tyrande’s actions and get attitude. I’d agree with you if Tyrande being petty prevented her in helping in the fight, but it didn’t. She was all in and fully commited from the very start. In light her her actions her attitude isn’t as significant until after the legion when the Nightborne joined the horde.

Why are you two arguing about the idiotic narrative that was ham fisted to somehow explain why Nightborne would join the Horde?

Hamfisted it surely was but I feel like Alynsa is trying to diminish Tyrande’s aid in the war based on her attitude towards the Nightborne.

[Vanbrik-goldrinn]

I find funny how that scenario was handled:

Thalyssra: I want to join a faction, but alliance did not help us gladly as horde did:
Horde: sure, we are the horde, acceptance is our thing.
-Then they go visit Silvermoon, and the sunwell, and that incident with alleria.
Horde: And that is why we banned those blood elves doing research on the void.
Thalyssra: i see you banned your own people for using magic you think is too dangerous, the horde truly is about acceptance, we’re joining horde.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

You’re trying to balance Tyrande’s actions and get attitude. I’d agree with you if Tyrande being petty prevented her in helping in the fight, but it didn’t.

Then I have to assume the issue here is your ability to read. Because no, I have not ever said her pettiness had a single thing to do with her ability to fight; that is all y’all. I said her pettiness cost her a potential ally and turned said ally to the side of her enemy. Factually, that is what happened. You all are the ones justifying it, saying things like “well of course she should have been petty, because after the fact, they did side against her!”

Maybe the issue here is you’re all arguing against a point you’re all creating. Maybe stop attributing your created points to me.

but I feel like Alynsa is trying to diminish Tyrande’s aid in the war based on her attitude towards the Nightborne

Then read what I post and not what you want me to post.

[Mythas-dentarg]

Maybe Nathanos does kill her after all…

Yup…that would be my guess.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

Then I have to assume the issue here is your ability to read.

My reading it’s fine, your ability to compose a cohesive statement however it’s not.

Because no, I have not ever said her pettiness had a single thing to do with her ability to fight; that is all y’all.

She can’t be as calm and level-headed? It’s more justified for her to be petty in the face of a world-ending threat she knows all too well, compared to one that broke the damn world?

Actually, my stance has been that Tyrande chose to be petty while helping, and she didn’t need to be.

Yes you have talked about Tyrande’s attitude and it eventually driving away the Nightborne but as posted above you’ve also tried to equate Tyrande’s attitude and her actions during the war, which is what I’m focusing on. This is an irrelevant point becuase Tyrande fully commited to the war. Her attitude is not relevant until after the legion is gone and the Nightborne joined the horde. And it’s not like they actually needed the Nightborne, the legion was defeated and no one knew that the next one was coming. Yes her attitude did drive them away but as quoted above in bold, you did imply that her attitude did have an effect on the war effort.

You all are the ones justifying it, saying things like “well of course she should have been petty, because after the fact, they did side against her!”

And it wasn’t petty. Her questioning on Thalyssra was direct and was historically relevant and honestly it was a fair question.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

My reading it’s fine, your ability to compose a cohesive statement however it’s not.

If that were true, then the “proof” you quoted wouldn’t have somehow got mangled in your head to a critique of Tyrande’s fighting ability, or her p[articipation in the assault on the Nighthold. It should be obvious, given no mention of her fighting ability or participation in the Nighthold assault is even mentioned.

Yes you have talked about Tyrande’s attitude and it eventually driving away the Nightborne but as posted above you’ve also tried to equate Tyrande’s attitude and her actions during the war,

Again, that is literally you making up an argument that literally does not exist on my end. I’m talking about how justified she is, you’re taking that and somehow confusing it to mean anything about her participation and the war effort. I’m talking diplomacy, you’re somehow thinking diplomacy is only about face-smashing and any talk of diplomacy is actually a criticism about how much face someone smashed.

Read. The words. I typed.

Not. The words. You wanted me to type.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

If that were true, then the “proof” you quoted wouldn’t have somehow got mangled in your head to a critique of Tyrande’s fighting ability

No one mentioned her fighting skills, I said her commitment, meaning not only fighting but supplying troops, supplies, intelligence, and rallying the citizens.

Again, that is literally you making up an argument that literally does not exist on my end.

You’re the one who wrote the statement, I’m just responding to it. Being petty in the face of war was unnecessary. Your words not mine. I’m saying her attitude is irrelevant becuase of her actions, basically your statement isn’t fair. Yes it had an diplomatic affect later but in the face of war (again your words) it’s irrelevant becuase it didn’t prevent her from aiding them. If anything her fully participanting in the war would hold more diplomatic weight than anything she said or not helping at all. You’re saying her words had an affect on diplomacy but so did her actions.

I’m talking about how justified she is

And she was. Look at the historical context of what’s going on and tell me she wasn’t right to be cautious of the Nightborne.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

No one mentioned her fighting skills, I said her commitment, meaning not only fighting but supplying troops, supplies, intelligence, and rallying the citizens.

Which is also a thing I haven’t mentioned, yet you keep claiming I have.

You’re the one who wrote the statement, I’m just responding to it. Being petty in the face of war was unnecessary. Your words not mine.

I have repeatedly agreed those are my words. They do not, however, say a single thing about her commitment to fighting. Just that she made petty comments, which were petty.

I’m saying her attitude is irrelevant becuase of her actions, basically your statement isn’t fair. Yes it had an diplomatic affect later

Thoise two things do not equate; her actions cannot be irrelevant if they had a detrimental effect. This also does not comment on her commitment to fighting, just to be clear.

If anything her fully participanting in the war would hold more diplomatic weight than anything she said

“I’m here to help you fight our mutual enemies, but you suck donkey farts” is poor diplomacy. You can help fighting without snarking. Liandrin managed it.

And in the real world and in Azeroth, we have examples of people being diplomatic in deeds and words getting further than people being diplomatic in deeds, while acting like a jerk.

You’re saying her words had an affect on diplomacy but so did her actions.

They did. The nightborne had a choice between a group who fought for them, but whose leader was a jerk, and a group who fought for them, but whose leader offered ongoing aide and understanding.

I hope somehow, this gets through to you. I hope somehow, you can see why yes, Tyrande’s snark might not have been the best decision. I hope you can then look back and realize this whole argument boils down to “Tyrande can be a jerk to people, it’s okay! I disagree that people shouldn’t be jerks to each other during a war!”

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

Which is also a thing I haven’t mentioned, yet you keep claiming I have.

I never said that you did. I didn’t even think you thought that until you mentioned fighting in the last post.

They do not, however, say a single thing about her commitment to fighting. Just that she made petty comments, which were petty.

Im speaking directly about this quote

It’s more justified for her to be petty in the face of a world-ending threat

It implies that “being petty” had an effect during the war. It didn’t. That’s my argument. And again it wasn’t petty but it sure as hell was cautious and standoffish, and understandably so.

Thoise two things do not equate; her actions cannot be irrelevant if they had a detrimental effect.

Did they? What was the detrimental effect? They won the war and are the Kaldorei or the Alliance worse off without the Nightborne?

“I’m here to help you fight our mutual enemies, but you suck donkey farts” is poor diplomacy.

Poor yes, but is it understandable? Yes, she did have a point.

You can help fighting without snarking. Liandrin managed it.

True, but remember Liandrin’s a Blood Elf and like all Blood Elves she are 7k years removed from what happened in Suramar. So the effects of what happened in the past wouldn’t be as significant for them. Tyrande and other Night Elves lived through what happened. Why do you think the Highborne were outcasts in Darnassian society, becuase they bring up a terrible memory of how they were all wiped out, the Nightborne of Suramar even more so. Plus the BE went through their own similar situation with Kael’Thas’ betrayal and the civil war, so they would sympathize.

And in the real world and in Azeroth, we have examples of people being diplomatic in deeds and words getting further than people being diplomatic in deeds, while acting like a jerk.

True.

They did. The nightborne had a choice between a group who fought for them, but whose leader was a jerk, and a group who fought for them, but whose leader offered ongoing aide and understanding.

I don’t think she was a jerk, but she definitely didn’t trust them. But it’s not surprising that the Sindorei acted the way they did, they are more socially like with the NB than the Kaldorei have been in 10,000 years.

I hope somehow, this gets through to you. I hope somehow, you can see why yes, Tyrande’s snark might not have been the best decision. I hope you can then look back and realize this whole argument boils down to “Tyrande can be a jerk to people, it’s okay! I disagree that people shouldn’t be jerks to each other during a war!”

I’m not saying being a jerk is ok, I am however saying that valid criticism and being cautious if those efforts motives you don’t really trust is ok.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

It implies that “being petty” had an effect during the war.

No. It implies that being petty in the face of a world-ending threat is, clearly, petty. And not a good idea. Which should be clear, because that is exactly what I’ve said.

Did they? What was the detrimental effect?

One side, the side of Tyrande’s enemies, seemed much more appealing.

Seriously, are you just trolling at this point?

Poor yes, but is it understandable?

Irrelevant, because my initial argument was simply that it was poor diplomacy. I never said whether or not it made sense, just that Tyrande should, after the dust settles and she’s reflecting on mistakes, maybe reflect on this one mistake.

True, but remember Liandrin’s a Blood Elf and like all Blood Elves she are 7k years removed from what happened in Suramar.

You’re still arguing whether Tyrande’s actions make sense. I’ve never disputed that they make sense, only if they were a smart decision. You’ve countered thus far the argument that it wasn’t a smart decision by saying “they make sense tho”.

We agree. It makes sense. It was also the wrong move.

I’m not saying being a jerk is ok, I am however saying that valid criticism and being cautious if those efforts motives you don’t really trust is ok.

Absolutely, we agree. But when you have the champion you’ve trusted with a magic pillar vouching for someone, when you have Khadgar vouching for someone, when you have already seen that someone fighting to save their own people… It stops being valid criticism to ask for more proof they aren’t going to go full sith lord, comparing them to their own current enemy and the much older enemy who caused all these problems in the first place.

Because when you already have that proof, that the people you’re now dealing with who have been exiled, hunted, starved and hunted some more are fighting a mutual enemy because they believe fighting that enemy is right? You don’t need to lay the snark down. Especially when you’ve been all too glad to vouch for worgen (who until just before they joined the Alliance were a threat in Ashenvale), draenie (who until that moment were completely unknown and assumed to be blue eredar… Which they kinda are), and demon hunters (other than her friend who keeps risking the world), and all their crimes (real, perceived or misunderstood) against the kaldorei are recent.

One more time, for the record; does it make sense for Tyrande to be snippy with the nightborne? Sure. Is it a smart political move? Probably not. Did it in the end cost her a potential ally? Yup, sure did. BUT DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR HER? YES IT DOES AND I AM NOT SAYING IT MAKES NO SENSE JUST THAT SHE MIGHT REGRET IT LATER BECAUSE OMG WHY ARE WE STILL DEBATING THIS OH RIGHT BECAUSE SOME NIGHT ELF POSTERS (#NotAllNightElves) REFUSE TO ACCEPT TYRANDE MIGHT MAKE MISTAKES OMG I HATE YOU ALL PLEASE-

Ahem. Yes, it makes sense why Tyrande was snarky.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

You forgot about her aiding the blood elves in warcraft 3 and then sending sentinels and and a few druids to spy on them in TBC.

To be fair, so did Blizzard.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

And not a good idea. Which should be clear, because that is exactly what I’ve said.

And I only think said pettiness relevant if it has an affect of the outcome of the war. It didn’t.

One side, the side of Tyrande’s enemies, seemed much more appealing.

Seriously, are you just trolling at this point?

So they lost an elven faction efforts values and lifestyle completely differs from their own, a relic of a period in time that they would not want to return to. For the Kaldorei, it’s not a loss.

Irrelevant, because my initial argument was simply that it was poor diplomacy. I never said whether or not it made sense, just that Tyrande should, after the dust settles and she’s reflecting on mistakes, maybe reflect on this one mistake.

It’s only poor if her stance is unwarranted. Valid criticism and cautiousness isn’t poor diplomacy. She justly questioned the Nightborne’s motives, fought with them and in the end Tyrande chose to walk away. She made the decision she thought was best. Did you ever consider that she just didn’t want them as a future ally?

But when you have the champion you’ve trusted with a magic pillar vouching for someone

And Jaina used to vouch for the orcs, look how that turned out.

when you have Khadgar vouching for someone

The moron who made so many mistakes on Dreanor that he got Cordana enthralled to Gul’dan and turned to the Legion.

when you have already seen that someone fighting to save their own people… It stops being valid criticism to ask for more proof they aren’t going to go full sith lord, comparing them to their own current enemy and the much older enemy who caused all these problems in the first place.

Usually yes but this is different. Tyrande is seeing this play out for the second time. Not to mention they abandoned their people. Until she knows more about them their motives are suspect.

Especially when you’ve been all too glad to vouch for worgen (who until just before they joined the Alliance were a threat in Ashenvale

Apples and oranges. The Worgen haven’t been a threat in over 8k years. They aided then because a sect of NE were responsible for creating the Worgen during the war. And the worgen didn’t aid the legion or produce a dangerous font of arcane power.

draenie (who until that moment were completely unknown and assumed to be blue eredar…

They were on the run, suffered nearly 2 genocide at the hands of the Legion and the orcs.

and demon hunters (other than her friend who keeps risking the world), and all their crimes (real, perceived or misunderstood) against the kaldorei are recent.

But Tyrande knew that if Maiev released them, she had to have a good reason.

it a smart political move? Probably not. Did it in the end cost her a potential ally?

I disagree.

SHE MIGHT REGRET IT LATER

But she doesn’t so…

REFUSE TO ACCEPT TYRANDE MIGHT MAKE MISTAKES OMG I HATE YOU ALL PLEASE-

She like anyone else can and do make mistakes, this just wasn’t one of them.

[anon95961490]

In fact I can’t imagine a worse thing for the Night Elf fandom than to let the most entitled feeling Night Elf fans control the Night Elf story.

Does this apply to Forsaken, Horde, and Calia?

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

In the end lore belongs to developers, not fans. No matter what we gonna write likely won’t affect the story in the slightest.

Also these forums are public, everyone is free to post what they like so long it’s civil. So I’d really like to see how nelf stans would like to enforce such a rule?

Perhaps they’ll flag OP as the topic creator was a Zandalari, not nelf?

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

It’s only poor if her stance is unwarranted

So at this point, it is clear this is an argument for the sake of an argument. I have addressed this, clarified it, debated it, and you keep returning to the beginning, which as I have already repudiated as irrelevant because you and I are obviously discussing different things. I am talking diplomacy. You want me to be talking about feelings. No thank you.

So with that, I think we are done.