How to get 12 million subs back. Step by step guide

[Conorn-dreadmaul (Conorn)]

Step 1: Make the game FOR Gamers.

[Sphinctus-bleeding-hollow (Sphinctus)]

just no, it’s going to be the same problem.

so we have 25 people in for the fight, and 5 people on the bench.

the only difference is that we have a 30 man roster vs the current 25-26.

This fixes zero issues and you have 5 more idiots to deal with.

[Lunkel-garona (Lunkel)]

Pretty entertaining thread. The asinine, counter-intuitive logic employed by some people who think the only way forward is by going backward never ceases to amuse me.

[Renim-aegwynn (Renim)]

Some of them would be a big negative for non-raider types, who are actually the majority.

“99% of players never progressed in Naxxramas, guess we shouldn’t have made it right?”
Wrong. The fact that Naxxramas exists gives everyone something to aspire to, something to hope for, something to daydream about, something to chat about, something to motivate you to finish your dungeon set or apply to a better guild or just play the game.

When the game is made with your philosophy the end result is a shallow experience that lacks appeal even to the casual majority.

Not to mention it’s the hardcore players who make the guilds and write the guides and make the snazzy videos and talk about the game all the time and get their friends to play. Most of my friends play casually and never raid but they rarely sub if none of our hardcore friends are playing.

Naxxaramas was a terrible business decision, and this is coming from someone that was doing hardcore raiding in Vanilla. It’s stupid business practice to make things that almost none of your customers experience. This is why they lowered the amount of people required for raiding from 40 to 25 and 10. This eventually culminated in LFR, so everyone can experience the content they’re working on.

They need a reason to spend development time on specific projects they work on, and if customers are not experiencing it, then it is a waste of money. Why do you think Naxx was recycled?

[Nawak-andorhal (Nawak)]

I like to look forward not backward.

The world has moved on, and turning WoW into that pattern of play would not turn back the clock.

forward is the only way to go even though it’s tempting to recreate the past

This argument is exasperating. A paper thin appeal to “future” over “past” has absolutely zero bearing on what type of game would be the most successful. The march of time has not changed this game by itself, human beings employed by Blizzard have made human decisions to create the game as it is. Those human decisions are not beyond reproach.

Seriously, appealing to a mystical sense of cosmic progress to justify your resistance to a major reworking of the game is absurd.

[Renim-aegwynn (Renim)]

Pretty entertaining thread. The asinine, counter-intuitive logic employed by some people who think the only way forward is by going backward never ceases to amuse me.

Considering the game had significantly higher subs prior to this expansion means something has changed. Many of us would rather them go back to an earlier design philosophy, rather than trying to go after a crowd that will never play the game (Fortnite teens).

There are certain things that are beyond removal, but a lot of the design philosophy surrounding class design, content design, and storytelling have really taken a toll on the game.

[Kurston-kul-tiras (Kurston)]

I tend to disagree with most of this list. The only thing I’d agree with is that Titanforging and other early forms of free gear advancement undermines progression-based motivations. Players need to feel as if there are upgrades to look forward to gaining.

The only way Titanforging works is if it is EXTREMELY rare… like you might get 1 per tier.

[Lunkel-garona (Lunkel)]

Considering the game had significantly higher subs prior to this expansion means something has changed. Many of us would rather them go back to an earlier design philosophy, rather than trying to go after a crowd that will never play the game (Fortnite teens).

There are certain things that are beyond removal, but a lot of the design philosophy surrounding class design, content design, and storytelling have really taken a toll on the game.

You know that happens to other forms of entertainment too, right? Like a TV show hits a peak audience member count and sits on top for a while, but then after enough time, people kinda lost interest but the show keeps a core that supports it no matter what.

And I know we like to throw around fancy concepts like “design philosophy” but can you explain to me how it is different now from then?

As far as I know, the only design philosophies that blizzard has stated was the “rule of cool” and “easy to play, hard to master” and from where I am standing it hasn’t changed.

Them making quality of life changes, streamlining, removing some unneeded tedium, whatever you want to call is as helpful for some of us old-timers as it is for those fortnite teens.

I don’t get why this is such a foreign concept for some people. Everything right now, today that is the most popular thing in it’s category, go back 10 years from now and see if that is still the case.

I would rather have them continue to try to change things, even if they sometimes fail (because they can at least learn from the failures) and keep the game fresh than let it sit and stagnate into irrelevance.

[Pikkarg-bleeding-hollow (Pikkarg)]

You’re really missing the point here. The TV shows go through changes that either appeal to the audience or they don’t.

WoW has similarly gone through changes that don’t appeal to the vast majority of players it once had. Changes implemented, like shows, by the development team behind it.

The changes we’re talking about here is removal of variety in progression and removal of character depth. People want character depth and they want a dozen ways to get their character from A - Z.

You do all that and people will come and stay. And no, it isn’t going back in the past. It’s a combination of what worked then and what works now.

[Lunkel-garona (Lunkel)]

You’re really missing the point here. The TV shows go through changes that either appeal to the audience or they don’t.

WoW has similarly gone through changes that don’t appeal to the vast majority of players it once had. Changes implemented, like shows, by the development team behind it.

The changes we’re talking about here is removal of variety in progression and removal of character depth. People want character depth and they want a dozen ways to get their character from A - Z.

You do all that and people will come and stay. And no, it isn’t going back in the past. It’s a combination of what worked then and what works now.

The game has to keep changing otherwise there is no reason to keep playing it.

How can you say there is no character depth when they have gone out of their way to make each spec feel unique from each other. In the past there was almost no difference between my specs and now each one has its own playstyle.

Are you telling me my hunter has less depth now than when I made him in 2005? Are you telling me there is less ways to get my hunter from A-Z now than in 2005?

And some of these lists aren’t asking for a combination of what works then and now, they are pretty much asking for a complete removal of now.

[Renim-aegwynn (Renim)]

Considering the game had significantly higher subs prior to this expansion means something has changed. Many of us would rather them go back to an earlier design philosophy, rather than trying to go after a crowd that will never play the game (Fortnite teens).

There are certain things that are beyond removal, but a lot of the design philosophy surrounding class design, content design, and storytelling have really taken a toll on the game.

You know that happens to other forms of entertainment too, right? Like a TV show hits a peak audience member count and sits on top for a while, but then after enough time, people kinda lost interest but the show keeps a core that supports it no matter what.

And I know we like to throw around fancy concepts like “design philosophy” but can you explain to me how it is different now from then?

As far as I know, the only design philosophies that blizzard has stated was the “rule of cool” and “easy to play, hard to master” and from where I am standing it hasn’t changed.

Them making quality of life changes, streamlining, removing some unneeded tedium, whatever you want to call is as helpful for some of us old-timers as it is for those fortnite teens.

I don’t get why this is such a foreign concept for some people. Everything right now, today that is the most popular thing in it’s category, go back 10 years from now and see if that is still the case.

I would rather have them continue to try to change things, even if they sometimes fail (because they can at least learn from the failures) and keep the game fresh than let it sit and stagnate into irrelevance.

I don’t know how long you’ve played, but Blizzards design philosophy has changed greatly throughout the expansions.

Stats no longer mean anything, you can’t choose the type of gear you want, mobs level with your gear score, classes have been pruned so much that variety is gone, you no longer need to worry about managing your class resources, all of crafting is now worthless, and talent systems have changed immensely.

The game is no longer an RPG, but an action game pretending its an RPG. Give me back enchanting on ALL of my pieces, give me back set pieces, give me back glyphs that change the gameplay, give me back sockets that I can gem, and give me back all of the stats for ALL of the classes and make them actually MEAN something instead of everyone having one or two stats that do anything.

World of Warcraft is suffering from a lack of choice in character building options, which can be fixed if they bring it back to being an RPG again.

TL;DR - Make World of Warcraft an RPG Again, and people will return.

[Pikkarg-bleeding-hollow (Pikkarg)]

The game has to keep changing otherwise there is no reason to keep playing it.

How can you say there is no character depth when they have gone out of their way to make each spec feel unique from each other. In the past there was almost no difference between my specs and now each one has its own playstyle.

Are you telling me my hunter has less depth now than when I made him in 2005? Are you telling me there is less ways to get my hunter from A-Z now than in 2005?

And some of these lists aren’t asking for a combination of what works then and now, they are pretty much asking for a complete removal of now.

The game, like the TV show must change yes. Agreed. But not all changes are good for the game either. Just like the TV show changes can ruin it.

When I talk about character depth I’m talking about a few things.

1. Skill layout.
2. Itemization.
3. Talents / Traits.

Unquestionably the character pruning eliminated complexity in the skill layout. Compare your hotbars today with your hotbars during MoP.

Itemization took a turn for the better with artifact weapons and legendaries but now we’re back where we were with boring gear options. People want a lot of ways to customize their gear and they want their gear to influence the power and playstyle of their character. They don’t want boring gear that just bumps their main stat.

Talents and traits are bad. Bad because the variety and scale is shallow. We’ve gone down to 7 of 21 options and there’s really only a dozen of them usually that are worth considering. More passives than ever before. Back when WoW was at its peak we were moving closer to having something you could spend days figuring out and people did spend days. It was a richer system that was worth sitting and finding what you wanted in it. Now it feels like you could truly play WoW on an xbox controller and be completely fine.

Why is 2005 important to you?

Some things need removed but mostly we need alternate routes to reputation gains. Some people want dailies, some people want world quests, some people want dungeons. I don’t see why rep can’t be gained in all of those. If that means putting a cap on rep for a few weeks then sure, do that. If it means I don’t have to grind out these silly mini games for weeks on end I’m all for it.

[Yellöwböze-trollbane (Yellöwböze)]

I’m just going to copy and paste this Smashy’s answer because he gets it.

How to get 12million subs back?

Short answer: Will never ever happen again.

Why? the new generation aren’t into MMO games, they are into Fortnite/PUBG/OverWatch and other games.

You are not going to convince a 13years old kid to grind Rep/Gear that will get irrelevant next patch and replaced.

It’s over, deal with it.

[Pikkarg-bleeding-hollow (Pikkarg)]

You are not going to convince a 13years old kid to grind Rep/Gear that will get irrelevant next patch and replaced.

Not what we currently have, agreed.

But disagree on it having to be what we currently have forever. It can be done MUCH better.

[Lunkel-garona (Lunkel)]

I don’t know how long you’ve played, but Blizzards design philosophy has changed greatly throughout the expansions.

Stats no longer mean anything, you can’t choose the type of gear you want, mobs level with your gear score, classes have been pruned so much that variety is gone, you no longer need to worry about managing your class resources, all of crafting is now worthless, and talent systems have changed immensely .

The game is no longer an RPG, but an action game pretending its an RPG. Give me back enchanting on ALL of my pieces, give me back set pieces, give me back glyphs that change the gameplay, give me back sockets that I can gem, and give me back all of the stats for ALL of the classes and make them actually MEAN something instead of everyone having one or two stats that do anything.

World of Warcraft is suffering from a lack of choice in character building options, which can be fixed if they bring it back to being an RPG again.

TL;DR - Make World of Warcraft an RPG Again, and people will return.

I don’t understand any of this.

What do you mean stats no longer mean anything? Like I don’t need agility on my gear? When could you choose the type of gear you wanted? Do you mean like wearing leather instead of mail?

Mob scaling is one of the most overblown issues here. I can go round up a dozen world quest mobs right now and mow them down with hardly any effort and I’m far from some super elite player.

You can make the argument that they took pruning too far, but a few years back hunters were complaining about having to manage 50-60 keybinds. It was getting out of hand and is much more manageable now.

If you don’t worry about managing your resources you are probably going to have problems doing things above world quests.

I can’t speak for other professions but I’ve been a leatherworker from the start and aside from a few niche items, it has always been worthless.

Talent systems are better now then they were before. Perfect? No, but I like them better than the trees.

There are different sub-genres of RPG. Like action rpg or turn based rpg. WoW has always been more fast paced. Ever see the combat in Everquest?

It just seems like people want the game set a certain way and for it to never change and that is just asking for it to finally die.

[Nüba-azralon (Nüba)]

I tried very hard to find a point I disagree with on this post.

I just couldn’t.

[Thunderpet-kilrogg]

Why do we need 12Mil subs?

I can enjoy this game just fine with whatever the subs are now. Do I miss Wrath and the heyday… sure, but I actually enjoyed this game the most when my son and I ran around BG’s together with OP classes and leveling alts.

So, not sure why we need to try and recapture 12 mil subs, when the game can be enjoyed with the numbers we have now.

[Yellöwböze-trollbane (Yellöwböze)]

Sure, but the only way to attract a new generation to this game would be to overhaul a lot of what makes it WoW. Blizz is always in a hole, one way or another. They don’t change anything, and it gets old and boring. They try and change things up and add news things, and then it’s met with backlash. Change has always been met with pitchforks and torches with this game. No matter what patch or xpac was the “glory days”.

[Pikkarg-bleeding-hollow (Pikkarg)]

Sure, but the only way to attract a new generation to this game would be to overhaul a lot of what makes it WoW. Blizz is always in a hole, one way or another. They don’t change anything, and it gets old and boring. They try and change things up and add news things, and then it’s met with backlash. Change has always been met with pitchforks and torches with this game. No matter what patch or xpac was the “glory days”.

No, not overhaul.

Imagine having the ability to grind rep today, as we already do WITH the rep tabards wrath had so we could also get rep in dungeons.

The answer has always been to offer people more variety in progression. Look at what Mythic+ and Challenge Modes did for the game. There needs to be more stuff like this. More Mage Towers, more personal character progression, etc.

[Bloodymane-staghelm (Bloodymane)]

enough with elves