How to fix TBC Arena Participation

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Babypuke-whitemane

I don’t think you understand the draw to MMORPGs. You and everyone who thinks this are making the mistake of believing that arena in WoW is “supposed” to be an e-sport in pursuit of perfect balance.

So arena will never be balanced as long as their is a PvE element aspect of this game. Theoretically, arena could be even more balanced if blizzard made certain spells do certain % damage / healing, duration and so on specific to pvp only. However, we have never gotten that, nor do i expect them to do something along those lines. It would easily take up too much time and money to do.

WoW arena was never intended to be an Esport. Sure, they have Blizzcon WAC or w/e it’s called, but that’s about it. It’s not like OWL where people get paid to be on a team.

@Babypuke-whitemane

The game is a series of journeys.

Yeah, so the journey to getting good at arena shouldn’t be blocked by gear. Climbing the ladder, earning higher ratings and achieving end seasons titles is the journey for arena.

@Babypuke-whitemane

It is not a problem, OR a barrier to competition that some gear would require varying amounts of rating

It absolutely is a barrier. Thinking otherwise shows that you are being disingenuous and put forth very little quality thought to the post.

@Babypuke-whitemane

The question is why should players be entitled to that extreme level of equal gear playing field,

All players deserve an equal chance to an equal start. Sure, farm the honor to get the gear. Do the grind. That’s the mmo aspect. Do NOT put meaningless requirements on gear. Everyone is entitled to a fair and healthy ladder. Otherwise the ladder dies. That’s the problem. Not people getting the opportunity to get gear(read, not free, because nothing is free and no one is asking for free).

@Babypuke-whitemane

and why doesn’t that invalidate two of the core elements of the journey

The journey is about climbing the ladder, not the gearing process.

@Babypuke-whitemane

(getting geared, and becoming skilled)?

Getting geared doesn’t mean you have skill. Yes, you can win games while being out geared, but that doesn’t apply to everyone. Not everyone is a god tier player.

Heres a question, whats wrong with making an equal playing field for PvP?

@Babypuke-whitemane

Having various rating requirements gives players different targets and levels of goals to pursue.

Add Tabards. Also titles do the same thing. Not gear. Not statistic advantages. That’s not fun, nor fair.

@Babypuke-whitemane

Arena participation has problems, but they aren’t as simple as being fixed by removing rating requirements and giving people free gear.

Why do people come up with this “free” idea? Where is this free coming from? You think it doesn’t take time to grind honor? Who keeps throwing around these ideas that any of this is free? Really baffles me.

I think you would be surprised how healthy a ladder can be if you remove the barrier to entry. Allow people the chance to get a relatively fair playing field. Don’t make it an uphill battle. The struggle of grinding newer heights is the uphill battle.

@Babypuke-whitemane

AND they have to prove that they aren’t going to devalue those journeys with things like boosts etc.

Everytime a new raid comes out, previous gear is devalued instantaneously. Why is making old, outdated gear easier to obtain such a big deal? All it does is stunt the growth of new players, and alts alike.

@Babypuke-whitemane

Nothing about the arena system in TBC implies that you ought to be able to join the game late at any point

That’s a garbage design that needs to be retired and overhauled. If we want to see longevity of a healthy and populated arena scene, we need to make changes. This is not new player friendly, nor is it alt friendly. All this does is discourage people from trying something new. Complete and utter nonsense.

[Babypuke-whitemane]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Yeah, so the journey to getting good at arena shouldn’t be blocked by gear. Climbing the ladder, earning higher ratings and achieving end seasons titles is the journey for arena.

Says who?? Gear is a highly meaningful form of progression in MMORPGs for most players. You’re going up against one of the most tried and true draws for player psychology here… you’re gonna need more than a simple assertion to dismantle it.

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

It absolutely is a barrier. Thinking otherwise shows that you are being disingenuous and put forth very little quality thought to the post.

Lol more random assertions.

If you’re as skilled as you say you are then you can just get the rating, and then get the gear. Right now it’s literally TWO PIECES gated behind rating requirements. The rest is attainable so long as you grind a bit in 5’s, if other players can do it, why can’t you follow in their footsteps???

Do you understand that Blizzard ADDS inflation to the ladder each week, thereby making it easier to climb and therefore the higher teams than you will move up more, leaving space behind them for you to go get points (not to mention there is a CURVE that reduces the gains as you climb higher)?? You DO realize that they can only spend so many points on gear before having an excess of arena points with nothing to spend them on… right???

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Do NOT put meaningless requirements on gear.

Another weird assertion. Dude honestly if you don’t think RATING is meaningful, the CORE element of the competition… then I’m not even sure why you care about this issue at all. Sounds like you just want a free mount or title to me.

Honestly reading the rest of your post I’m pretty sure I’m arguing with a 12 year old who hasn’t quite come into their critical thinking skills lol. I’ll call it a day.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Babypuke-whitemane

Says who??

The ladder that’s dying.

@Babypuke-whitemane

If you’re as skilled as you say you

it’s not about me not being able to get gear, it’s about me finding games in less than 5 minutes, and not facing the same team over and over again.

My druid is already 2k+ this season on TBC.
My paladin on retail, this toon, who i don’t play anymore because retail is a dumpster fire has been to 2655.

Take the time to look. This change is not about me. I am not effected by rating requirements, except on my alts.

This is about people like my friends who want to join the arena scene for the first time ever and struggle to do anything because the barrier to entry, like last season arena gear still costing arena points instead of honor. Terrible design.

My friends haven’t lost hope yet, but how many others have? Join a game and get blasted because of gear differences is terribly depressing. These players aren’t playing against other good players, either. It’s not fun losing half your health to a 3.5k mortal strike. There is no skill in that. Just bad design.

It doesn’t have to be fun 24/7, but it does have to be bearable. Not having gear because it’s gated for no reason is toxic. Bad game design, and once again, discourages players from even trying.

@Babypuke-whitemane

Dude honestly if you don’t think RATING is meaningful,

Put rating on tabards, kind of like the one i have on this toon right now. You need to get to 2,600 rating to buy it. Just add in new tabards and put a rating requirement on it and people will chase. This concept does work well with things that don’t boost stats. Things that do boost stats, not so much.

@Babypuke-whitemane

Sounds like you just want a free mount or title to me.

I’ve gotten my duelist title from last season, again, for the 10th time. I personally don’t care about titles. Yes, glad would be cool. No, i’m not good enough to be a glad player.

@Babypuke-whitemane

Honestly reading the rest of your post I’m pretty sure I’m arguing with a 12 year old who hasn’t quite come into their critical thinking skills lol. I’ll call it a day.

Yes, resort to name calling. Thanks for the bumps though. I’ll take what i can.

[Chuckaduck-thunderfury]

@Elisande-earthfury

give undead rogues 1 point a win that will make me play more arena

Let me swap to belf.

[Megarune-frostwolf]

You’re not wrong Is I’m not gonna lie part of me would love to see the in sanity things would be like if they just said tomorrow OK guys we know you really don’t like the way the game is being and things got screwed up so we’re just gonna give you wrath talent trees now.

Can you imagine the insanity that would be Although they would have to change up itemization a little bit but still it would be hilarious

[Megarune-frostwolf]

It’s OK1I will agree with one thing the biggest problem Well 1 of 2 biggest problems in tbc This is a lack of people the 2nd would be bots.

However what we’re trying to argue here is that the barrier to entry to is there to entry to pvp in general.

It’s just too big for most people to want to bother because what you have is because the burial entry is so big.

The only people that are actually going to try and do it are either one In Hardcore rating Guild or at least semi hardcore.

Just because you have to justify the gold cost or 2 that person that has a ton of alts that doesn’t have anything else to do so that’s all they’re doing is farming anyway.

Not only that I’m going to see a hot take I think it was a mistake to just put out tear 4 I think we should have gotten tear foreign tear 5.

I think we should have just said heck with arena season one and gone right to arena season 2 I think the blue reputation PVP gear should have been there should have been there at launch.

And I think season one gear should Have been Is able to be purchased with honor why.

That gives PP gear a little bit more of a progression path You can still get those reputations up while you’re leveling.

So when you hit 70 you have something to grab Then you hit the battle grounds and grind for your.

Epic PVP gear And then you kind of go into arena on a little bit more of a Equal footing This is also one of the reasons I constantly justified duel speck.

Because as you said Is new people are not coming to the game and the fact is the barrier to entry for pvp Is so large either one.

People are either one going to try it maybe once or twice realize what a huge growing this is and say I’m not doing this.

Or 2 They’re just gonna look at it and say well unless you have a group of people ready to consistently do it with you it’s not worth it.

I know I that’s why I’m not doing it PVP doesn’t like it could be some fun but as a tank no way.

And quite frankly the idea to have into Pay a 100 gold every single time it’s not worth it.

It’s plain and simple if the arena gear was Bible with honor at the very least there would be something and more of a reason to actually do battlegrounds.

Because quite frankly Unless you’re really going hardcore and planning to jump into arena there’s literally no reason to go for the blue pvp set.

You’re just going to buy the reputation one and be done with it Is just playing in Is and symbol.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

Just a reminder that the arena scene is slowly dying. Without changes in a timely manner, or even issues being brought up, discussed and addressed, we will see an even bigger decline.

[Babypuke-whitemane]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

The ladder that’s dying.

What are you talking about? TBC appears to be growing steadily and personally on a large PvP server arena participation seems to be increasing quite a bit here, partly due to access to rep gear probably but also just the fact that a lot of people started late or level behind the curve.

It’s pretty much doing exactly what I predicted, large starting pop, big drop off after the first month as is standard in MMOs, then (due to the fact that TBC’s content rollout has SO much good stuff in it, and the core gameplay is SO good) the population will continue to climb until it peaks at the end of TBC.

The real crime here is boosting, bots, and other things generally that undercut the progression experience. Those combined with years of horrible game design on retail have attracted and groomed players to become an entirely different audience of immediate gratification players… while sucking the value out of the journey.

It’s going to take a little time to restore WoW’s reputation, it’s also going to require that Blizzard remove unhealthy things like the boost that foster those bad expectations, and also NOT act on the feedback you’re giving. Unless they just intend to make this into retail and end up with the same or similar problems.

P.S. if you’re complaining about the ladder being dead because not that many people were 2K+ for you to matchmake into on WEEK 1 then that’s part of the problem, you don’t understand player behavior, the casuals that you seem to be trying to defend here aren’t playing the game like you. They’re gearing up on their own time and the ladder will steadily grow as it originally did.

At 2150 MMR today we queued against a ton of different team diversity over a couple of hours.

[Hydrose-bigglesworth]

Big true, but there’s a wide range of issues when trying to compare retail to tbc arena. That would def be on the list though.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

I saw this on the arena forums and it touched my heart.

@Revolol-azuremyst

The biggest pushback to this that I’ve seen is “What will the reward be then?” Realistically when has gear EVER been "THE NUMBER ONE PvP reward”? Some very old systems valued gear as a reward, but they were removed for the same reasons. The disparity in gear made pushing unfun. We have titles, rating achievements, mounts, etc. that are the reward for doing arena. Arena in the past has primarily been about these rewards and about HAVING FUN PLAYING PVP

When people grind bgs or arena, most do it because it’s fun to play pvp. Because it’s fun to gain new heights, earn titles, and possibly if you’re good enough, a limited edition gladiator mount. Most people don’t do pvp just for the gear.

There is currently no reason to time gate older gear. Once a season has ended, that gear should be available for honor. Mindless time gating is hurting both classic and retail arena. Time gating just does not work when it comes to player versus player interactions. It might work for PvE, but this isn’t pve.

PvE bosses don’t get stronger as the current tier progresses. However, players do. The problem is, new players get hurt the most, alts get hurt as well. The overall experience becomes miserable for those who miss a week, or came late from last season. It just kills motivation and the drive to be an active participant.

A side note. Revo is a multi rank one gladiator player. This is someone who knows how the game is played, and how it ought to be played. This is someone who has spent a great deal of time, dedication and energy getting to where he is. There are few as good as him.

When i brought up my past 2600 achievement, i look like a 1300 rated player compared to this man. I’m practically a rookie who has never even stepped foot into arena. This guy knows what he’s talking about. He lives eats and breathes competitive pvp. Which from at least my view point, is very good – if we listen to him.

[Robinton-fairbanks]

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere, but to add to this i’d think removing arena teams (similar to retail) would help with queue times. Current arena teams simply limit who you can play with. You know? Maybe you want to queue now, but your teammates are not on to play. If you leave to play with someone else you might screw yourself over on good amount of arena points. Not only that if you spam queue with another partner on the same team you might knock them out of the range for points for the week.

Maybe I’m looking at this wrong way, but I just think removing teams will increase participation across all brackets.

[Cilva-benediction]

just add solo q finding partners is the hardest part of arena.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Robinton-fairbanks

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere

I don’t believe i brought it up in this specific thread, but i did comment in another thread about my opinion on the matters.

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Personally, i agree with the removal of teams and allowing people to play with others without repercussion. All teams do, in my opinion, is limit whether or not others play with new protentional team mates or even friends.

Having limiters, like being within 150 points of the team rating, or 30% of games played is a huge detriment to a healthy ladder. To my current knowledge, no one actually cares about team names, or how many games people play on a team. It’s just about how to get your weekly cap in, in a timely manner.

If they allowed cross server arena play, we would likely see an increase in active participation. Right now, it seems pretty dead.

To me, there are several obvious reasons as why the ladder seems, or is straight up is dead. No way to catch up if you’re late, or an alt. Teams restricting or making it harder for people to join / leave and getting enough games played / with in rating to get points by Tuesday reset. No cross server playing. S1 gear being near unobtainable for anyone who doesn’t already have it. The list goes on.

People may say they don’t want changes, or this isn’t the game they pay for… Those same players would apparently rather see the arena scene die completely than for obvious solutions to be made. To me, this does not make any sense. Nor has anyone provided an actual thought out response other than “hey man, this is classic, and classic should remain classic because that’s how classic was, and in no way, for better or for worse, should classic be changed because of no valid or rationally thought out reason.”

The PvP scene is vastly different than the pve scene. Sometimes, it may require more attention, but if the problems are solved, can go without any attention at all. Right now, there are obvious, overbearing, quite frankly ridiculous problems going unnoticed, unsolved or just outright ignored that will, without any doubt in my mind, cause the scene to die before wrath comes out.

Anyone who gives this more thought than 30 seconds of time, and perhaps more than one post on the forums would likely see there is many problems at hand causing severe disparities that need to be addressed. This may be a “classic”, but that doesn’t mean it deserves to die “just because that’s how it originally was.”

It saddens to me to -know- that people would rather let the arena scene die, “just because that’s how it originally was”, than to address legitimate issues and make the ladder healthy again. I guess, “it do be like that sometimes”, though. I have very little hope that this will be addressed, let alone even mentioned by any one who has power to change anything for good, or for worse.

Knowing how little activision cares, and lack of care for literal years when it comes to the pvp scene, my hopes aren’t high, but i think persistence is key.

[Gaige-hyjal]

Put rating starts to 1500, remove rating requirement on arena vendor, and increase honor gain in BGS by 200%

[Riger-arugal]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Duel spec is definitely a barrier to entry as well.

I’d prefer to see something like an Arena spec. Rather than a toggle you can choose you select a spec and then a pvp variant and your loadout automatically changes when you enter an arena. That way you don’t get sweaty PVErs abusing it in raids.

But respeccing is a barrier to entry for Arena I agree.

[Daykiller-incendius]

The abusive profession items and everyone ONLY running BiS race/class combos ruins it for anyone not a hardcore PvPer. I was actually super excited to play arena in TBC, it was the highlight of my WoW career, eventually culminating me getting glad in S4. Unfortunately the amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

[Drstolk-grobbulus]

@Daykiller-incendius

amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

The reason why arenas are so sweaty is because of the design. They are using a highly competitive rating system and the rewards requires you to be the best of the best (top 1-3% for shoulders) at least top 10% but probably more like top 5-8% for weapons. On top of this, higher rated players get about double the points as everyone else around that 50% bottleneck.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Daykiller-incendius

Unfortunately the amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

With all due respect,

@Daykiller-incendius

eventually culminating me getting glad in S4.

Would put you in the same category you don’t like about the community. Gladiator is top 0.5%. You don’t get there by not being “a sweaty”. I don’t think that being someone who takes the game seriously is a bad thing.

I loved this game a lot. It’s very fun to be a good player. Understandably, professions do kind of ruin a little bit of the edge, and i agree they should not be allowed in arena, but you can still win games without them.

I don’t use skull of impending doom. Yes, i lose more games against mage rogue as rdruid/warrior than i should, if i had the skull of impending doom… I just don’t agree a level 40ish item should be usuable in arena.

I digress. The systems around arena definitely don’t reward newer players. Season 1 arena gear costing arena points, the same currency it takes to buy season 2 arena gear. Just doesn’t add up. Would be nice to see more incentives to the lower end of arena so that it’s easier to try, find out if you like it, and if you do, climb the ranks without having to be a seasoned veteran or “super sweaty” just to play.

[Drstolk-grobbulus]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

The systems around arena definitely don’t reward newer players. Season 1 arena gear costing arena points, the same currency it takes to buy season 2 arena gear.

It’s really terrible design. New players just get curb stomped and get no reward for playing.

Even decent players are not really being rewarded. Once season 2 started my 3s team won our first 8 games before we saw a loss. We ended up going 15 and 4 the first week. We got a whopping 530 points. Only 3 more weeks to get a chest or helm piece…

Most people will look at this and just say “yeah, Ef that!”

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Drstolk-grobbulus

It’s really terrible design. New players just get curb stomped and get no reward for playing.

The reward is very low. It takes weeks for newer and lower rated players alike to get even one piece. There is no catchup system in place. The problem will only get worse as the game goes on without anything being addressed. Truly depressing.