How to fix M+ pugging, lack of tanks heals and toxicity

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

so it’s not caring for the mode, but viewing it as homework

[Flamekraft-windrunner]

Everyone thinks they have the solution to the lack of tanks and heals. The solution is to play tank or heals.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

@Ardeth-tichondrius

you can still be just as toxic?

Leaving a bad group is not being toxic.

[Atrazesh-gurubashi]

Maybe we could try leasing slaves from America’s private prison industry to play tanks for us?

[Annastasi-proudmoore]

@Xandracon-proudmoore

You know what you can’t do in M+ if you kick someone mid run? Replace them and keep going.

good.

being able to kick and replace would lead to the most degeneracy we’ve seen in ages.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Xandracon-proudmoore

Yeah, your trying to make the end result of “the leader disbands the group” vs “everyone choose to leave” different. The end result is everyone leaves the group either way

Again, the end result is not the same.

1. Leaving is on the player. Kicking is on the group leader.
2. Leaving currently results in x groups failing. Adding the benefits to kick now adds the current leavers plus those who are kicked. You are increasing the group failures for pugs by opening a door that shouldn’t be opened.
3. It’s disingenuous to try and argue that people won’t be kicked during the early stages of runs to get a better player. This happens in all difficulties of content where kicking benefits the group. This is player behavior that has been observed and isn’t just a theory.

The end result is literally not the same. If what we have now is x levels of toxic it will be x+y levels of toxic with depletions removed.

@Xandracon-proudmoore

Anyway I’ve been awake all night. Done “arguing” about this for now. We’re going in circles anyway.

What happened to this? You are still here and still arguing. Go to bed.

[Xandracon-proudmoore]

Yeah, I hate M+ and it can burn in hellfire. Maybe I’d enjoy it more if it wasn’t so toxic, but Blizzard insists (for now) that keys must deplete (even though we have an npc for that).

[Xandracon-proudmoore]

Oh look, you left out

@Xandracon-proudmoore

Your telling me the end result is not the same. I think what you mean to say is how you achieve the end result is different. If your not then I’m just done at this point. Its like your trying to tell me that if I mix yellow and blue paint together, or if I just use green paint from the beginning the end result will be different. No. Its just 2 ways to get the same result. Maybe it needs to be simpler. I’m saying 1 + 3 = 4, and that 2 + 2 = 4, and your are trying to argue with me that the end result of 4 is different depending on if I did 1 + 3 or did 2 + 2 instead.

Shocking.

@Sôsari-dalaran

What happened to this? You are still here and still arguing. Go to bed.

Problem solved. Done talking in loops to a wall.

[Eàu-warsong]

@Sôsari-dalaran

No, much of the community doesn’t want it.

Most of the community actually really wants it.

[Ardeth-tichondrius]

Well, no, but being kicked from one with zero reason why isn’t sunshine and rainbows. I get that this content is hard. It requires coordination and all that jazz, but there needs to be something anything to protect people from this kinda of childish crap while still letting them get better and learn. They want a fully stocked shelf of tanks, but they treat them like garbage. Maybe leaving a group needs more punishments?

I’d argue you should probably always do this type of content with friends or not at all. It just seems like a no-brainer. I’m not good enough to do this clearly, but I just think the environment of it is just toxic in general. It needs something to extend the olive branch if you’re ever going to solve your problem. That or refuse to play with randoms. From the sounds of it playing with randoms is bad. Stop doing that.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

Leaving a bad group isn’t being toxic.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

@Ardeth-tichondrius

Maybe leaving a group needs more punishments?

How do you punish it? All current leaving punishment are limited to the queue itself, not the dungeon. You can walk in heroic dawnbreaker just fine after ditching a heroic dawnbreaker queue.

[Eàu-warsong]

@Xandracon-proudmoore

Why? Because your score is higher?

Honestly I just recognized your name. You’ve been trolling M+ threads like this for years and never offer any actual feedback, just fallacies and "no you"s.

Soso was trolling each M+ or raiding or any thread where people try to improve general player experience like forever.

[Ardeth-tichondrius]

Deleveling? Like if you leave your key goes down a level? I really don’t know how it works. It’s all gatekept from my skill level as it is.

[Eàu-warsong]

@Sôsari-dalaran

Keys deplete for many reasons. One of which is to curb the rate of players failing upwards. This happens every season the longer it goes on where people end up in key levels they are not skilled enough for from crest/vault farmers. Keys not depleting will only make it exponentially worse. They will get carried, intentionally or not, into max vault and now have it for the rest of the season. Constantly bringing down other pugs and making the pug scene way worse than it already is.

Never read such BS salad before.
Also you making huge mistake, you quoting developers on somthing and thinking it makes your argument has more weight, sorry to disappoint, it does not. Sit.

@Sôsari-dalaran

I’ve written a long and detailed thread about non-hyperbolic changes to M+ but those threads die out because there’s no controversy. All of these get rid of timers and key depletions are just trolling at this point. They don’t want real solutions they just want to make noise.

Nothing of what you saying makes sense, just stop it.
Also while at it stop trolling M+ threads, thanks.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

If you wanna kill pugs, that’s how. And beside, if leaving your terrible group that can’t avoid fire patches causes me to derank, I’ll just unplug my lan cable.

[Ardeth-tichondrius]

Maybe it should. Maybe you shouldn’t be able to pug then. If leaving screws the run that badly. I don’t do the content, but if I did, I would absolutely never run it with randoms. Randoms have ruined regular dungeons for me. I’d rather not have to deal with jerks on the steroids’ difficulty.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

Oh big time, and that is always what I’ve recommended people to do. Pugging is the source of all that is bad with m+.

Not getting gear? My teammates are and we clear stuff faster and easier.
Not timing? Well even if it deranks, it means we weren’t ready for that, and if we really are, we have 4 more keys anyway.
Players leaving? Well that only happens when we decide we can’t complete.

[Annastasi-proudmoore]

@Abendroth-zuljin

Pugging is the source of all that is bad with m+.

quoting for truth.

people who insist on only pugging are what is ruining m+. stop doing it.

[Yamarãja-malganis]

They happen until +12 and then tanks have just as bad of a wait as DPS, maybe worse, since people will hold out for a high io tank on higher keys.