A Demigod that didn’t use any of his Demigod powers… the whole point of this is you said druids would be near useless without their powers… I argue that they are still formidable as large, fanged and clawed creatures, with a primal connection to nature.
For the record though, Thrall barely defeated Garrosh. So do not underestimate warrior and do not overestimate Thrall.
Thrall is at the very least on par with malfurion if not more powerful, and Malfurion was brought down by a single axe blow so maybe you shouldn’t be over estimating him either.
Considering Thrall and Garrosh were on par with eachother, and Saurfang as a mentor to Garrosh, and Malfurion owned Saurfang like it was nothing… I think Malfurion outclasses Thrall in everyway.
I mean, you take “A single axe blow” to the back and see how well you fare. Keep in mind he was on the cusp of killing your Warcheif at the time. That hardly undersells Malfurion.
Thrall the world shaman vs Malfurion the first druid I think it’s an even fight and Saurfang didn’t teach Garrosh how to fight, and Yeah Garrosh was doing great up until he grabbed him with a hand made of earth and struck him down with lightening. I don’t think malfurion would fair much better.
First, Druids as a general rule are more powerful than Shaman. First, Shaman ask the elements for aid, and the Elementa do not always answer, or demand something in return. ADruid “might” require the favor of a wild God, but that’s usually only for Shapeshifting.
Second, consider Malfurion’s age. He has had hundreds of Thrall’s lifetimes to hone his craft under the tutelage of Cenarius, the Son of Elune and a Wild God.
Third, I never said Saurfang taught Garrosh how to fight, I said he was a mentor. Meaning Garrosh learned a lot about combat from Saurfang. And Garrosh respected him as a Warrior. The two were on par with each other. Using that as a point of reference, Malfurion could probably beat all three at once.
Thrall fought Garrosh during Wrath once and Thrall was losing before the duel was cut short.
Um no that’s not a thing, and yes shamans ask the elements for aid but not in the sense that every time they do anything it’s a long drawn out conversation with the elements it takes no longer than a mage casting a spell. Yes he’s older but blizzard has never cared much about that other wise Rommath would have one shot Jaina forever ago.
Look at Garrosh’s Wowpedia page.
"Frustrated with his leader’s apparent lack of action and the insults to his father, Garrosh challenged Thrall to a duel in the Ring of Valor to settle the matter.[18][19]
The two orcs fought for some time until it seemed Garrosh had gained the upper hand.[18] He began to taunt Thrall, but the battle was interrupted by a Herald of the Lich King threatening Orgrimmar with destruction."
Sure, but unlike mages and Druids, a Shaman’s power is not assured. They do not always answer the Shaman’s pleads.
The two never fought, and furthermore, we don’t know what Rommath’s skillset is. He might be a powerful Divination mage… powerful not not useful in combat, there is some variability there, espeshially that we have never really seen what Rommath can do and what type of magic he does. It is also worth considering that Jaina is as powerful as she is because she trained under Antonitus and then had a romantic relationship with the Dragon Aspect of magic…
Friendly reminder that the majority of that 8x larger army was not facing the Night Elves all at once in Darkshore as they were either slowly trickling in through the wisp wall or slowly marching up through Felwood to flank. The only times they faced the whole force were in Ashenvale, when they were steamrolled, and at the end, when they lost.
Just trying to point out that using this to say the night elves are stronger than the Horde is very questionable.
Careful she’s been fighting a flood of facts supported by nothing but generous interpretation of stated facts and head Canon to support her for two days now . She is one of the night elves most powerful forum posters.
“Steamrolled” By poisoning the town militia, and blitzing and slaughtering unarmed civilians. That’s not really a display of force, and this is a discussion about power level.
The Wisp wall merely evened the odds to some degree, and it is unclear exactly how much the Wisp Wall restricted the Horde. Part of me doubts that it was restricting 7/8ths of the Horde’s forces… and the Night Elves were still able to kill more Horde than the Horde could kill them.
Considering the Shal’dorei were opening portals to funnel in more troops, I don’t think the Wisp Wall did much more than gave the nelves time to mobilize their militia and conscript civilians, which they hadn’t been able to do in Ashenvale.
lol dude, this is a discussion about power levels. It’s entirely speculative because there is no lore that explicitly states military standing. ANY answer is a head canon answer… the best you can hope for is that there are lore examples to loosely bases your opinion on, which I have been doing, and you have not been doing.
You are taking my OPINION and taking it super personal due to some strange anti-nelf bias that you have. So much that you even made a separate thread that was just you raging about how annoyed you are by nelf fans. (Before you took that post down). So don’t talk to be about head canon and bias, dude. At least I am self aware.
Forsaken is the most powerful race. They have the plague and no morals, not to mention they can revive the dead.
Not sure why you’re saying “merely” when that was the entire point of it. Yes, it evened out 8x1 odds to something more manageable.
And that’ll happen when the Horde’s spending a week+ throwing soldiers at a very well set up defensive line while making no progress.
The Night Elves fought smarter, not harder, and that’s a good thing. They used the tools at their disposal to make sure they wouldn’t be instantly overwhelmed, and it’s how I’d expect any race to handle being invaded by a superior force.
But that said, if the Night Elves were capable of fending off the Horde with 8 to 1 odds in a battle of sheer brute force, there’s no reason they would have lost when Saurfang’s attack started and the wisp wall went down.
I find it fascinating that you’re trying to prove the night elves were super amazing in a fight while trying to lessen the importance the very things that let them succeed at defending as long as they did.
And since I feel I should actually contribute to the actual topic at hand, I definitely agree with others that the dwarves would probably be on top since they’ve successfully avoided any cataclysmic loss of population most of the other races have gone through.
But to what degree? 7x1? 4x1? 1x1? As I said that you ignored, I doubt it evened the odds to 1x1. and considering the Goblins severly weakened the Wispwall, and the Shal’dorei were teleporting troops in, I don’t think it restricted the Horde at all in the grand scheme of things. It merely slowed them down.
Not true, flanking has been a timeless tactical maneuver, even by modern warfare standards. That is why Suarfang’s flank over the mountains was successful, that was a -smart- move, not a display of brute force. The Kaldorei beat the Horde both in the tactical and martial fields up until that point.
Im not lessening anything, these are clear examples as to why I believe the things I do. I believe your understanding of tactics is lacking to really understand that though.
No I made a separate post and took it down largely due to the fact I didn’t want to argue with EVERY night elf rper on moonguard and thought it’d be better that way. As for arguing lore you know what let’s do it.
The night elves are by In large a very adept race in things like nature magic, and asymtrictical warfare. Their core military components are as follows
The sentinels a skilled corps of rangers/hunters that specialize in hit and run tactics stealth missions and night raids. They utilize their extensive knowledge of the night elven territories to attack opponents and slip away as quickly as they came
The sisters of elune an order of priestess warriors that heal the injured and call down their goddesses power.
The druids users of nature magic adept at healing casting nature based spells and shape shifting into an assortment of animals to aid them in combat. They act as the heavy infantry, casters, and healers of the army
The ancients powerful beings of nature that act as siege equipment and mobile bases for the night elves.
The night elves are well versed at fighting a war In the woods but with a severe lack of conventional units they would not fair well in open areas like the barrens or durotar where grunts wolf riders and other various heavily armored units would be able to give chase without the elves being able to slip away.
They have a small number of arcane magic users leaving them extremely vulnerable to organizations like the kirin Tor or magi of silvermoon.
These alone would leave them hard pressed to make any meaningful assaults on any horde city like thunder bluff or org. The night elves are asymtrict warfare masters but without the support of other alliance races they lack the heavy infantry and magical ability to invade out side of their territories that is why I didn’t rank the night elves that highly on my list because they are far too specialized to present a threat In most situations other than forest or jungle environments(arguably mountains as well ) not because I dislike the night elves
How is this not your own head canon? What is your source for this? Or is this simply an assumption for you?
Here is an assumption, Archers are more effective on an open field. With the War of the Shifting Sands under their belt, the Kaldorei military is no strangers to open field tactics, likely using their night sabers and mounted archers to envelop the enemy, use hit and run tactics to test and probe, hit and run, then feign retreat, only to come back to off-balance and pin the enemy with shock action.
This is an example of hit and run tactics used in open fields most notably by the Mongels, who did it so successfully, it redefined warfare in Europe. After losing the battle the Vorskla River, the Polish-Lithuanian Empire adopted those same tactics to defeat the heavily armored and skilled Teutonic Knights at the battle of Grunwald.
So, not only is your assessment pure head canon, but it is factual and historically incorrect.
Also, you must be joking. The Shen’dralar are some of the most experienced mages on Azeroth and have been training new magi since Cata.
“When a portal whirled open, the normally reserved night elves cheered. The magi who stepped through, who until this moment had only cautiously been made welcome in Darnassus, smiled in surprise. The cheers swelled when they each opened another portal—and reached a crescendo as, over the course of several minutes (and with not a few interruptions), a dozen bears, birds, and nightsabers came through.”
Which is entirely your opinion based in pure head canon.
And the night Elves don’t have a monopoly on bows and arrows believe it or not I know crazy to imagine but it’s true. They are also not the only force in the world to utilize mounts another crazy thought and if we are going for who is better at fighting in an open areas with mounts the warsong outriders have the night elves dead to rights trained in the fields of nargand fighting ogre clans with hit and run baiting the pursuit so on and so forth
Congrats like I said you have few arcane magic users and unless they reformed the moon guard they are no where near on par with any of the other arcane magic user groups.
Your example with the war or the shifting sands actually does more to prove my point than discredit it as the night elf armies were pushes out of silthius when they intially engaged the forces of cthun being out maneuvered and enveloped. It wasn’t until the dragon flights joined in the assault that the night elves made any real progress in the war. The night elf army is described as lightly armored fast moving unit with a lot of mounted assets specialized in fighting asymtrict warfare.
Also if we are talking about redefining warefare in Europe the invention of the stirrup by the arabs had far more effect on mounted Calvary tactics making Roman style Calvary obsolete. No major European power ever adopted mounted archery tactics and the huns demonstrated these tactics to Western Europeans far more than the mongels.
Neither did the Mongels.
Mogels weren’t either.
You seem to think the weapon make the warrior, which is not the case.
Also, the Warsong used these tactics as well, but that point is irrelevant, because I was addressing something very specific that you said.
Which by your own admission, is untrue.
No they weren’t… they were Druids trying to regrow the region that were pushed out. Once the Military arrives, the war was an ebb and flow, with ground taken and lost on both sides… Against unbelievably sized swarms, with the Kaldorei being outnumbered to ridiculous degrees. That is a testament to the might of the Kaldorei, not something revealed as a weakness.
You’re right, they are better than other arcane magic groups… Mordent Evenshade says it himself.
“The magic of today pales in comparison to that of millennia past.”
Sounds like the Mogels… Who dominated on the open field so much, that it redefined warfare, and built the largest empire in history.
That’s my point… The idea that the Kaldorei cannot compete on an open field is not true, because the mogels did it with a similar skillset, and did it with unbelievable success.
Then the Polish took those tactics and used it against a… as you put it:
And won one of the most romanticized victories in European history,
The orcs are described like the mongels not the night elves. They have never demonstrated a high degree of ability in open fields. You are making a dishonest arguement that the night elves tactics used primarily in heavily wooded areas would be just as if not more effective in open areas to the degrees that they would beat races who specialize in this. Other militaries have heavy armored Calvary rifles and mages to easily defend from an envelopement. If you are taking what the stock npc mags trainer says as proof that the night elves have better casters without any feats to speak of that’s laughable. When was the last time the highborne created magical nulifcation fields in their home lands that made all non elven magic weaker while strengthening their own? Or stopped an entire army with a magical bubble around the city?
Sorry last point the night elves were described as losing the fight but fighting relentlessly they were being over run. That is the primary tactic of cthuns servants swarm and sustain heavy casualties while grinding the enemy army down. It’s not an impressive feat to play into your enemy’s hands.
You are confused, let me break this down here.
They have never demonstrated a low-degree of ability in open fields either.
The orcs do not specialize in this, the Warsong do. When the orcs came through the Portal, the bulk of their army was Blackrock.
“By the time immediately preceding the creation of the Old Horde, the Blackrocks boasted the largest, most organized, and best equipped orcish military in the world.” Source: Chronicle Vol 2.
The Blackrock are reliant on their armor and equipment, and not known for their maneuverability and hit and run tactics. A fight between them and the more maneuverable Kaldorei or Warsong, would result similarly to what happened at Vorskla River and Grunwald.
Now, sure, the Warsong could provide some insight with the Kaldorei’s tactics, as they are familiar with them… But they couldn’t actually rival them, unless you honestly believe a single orc clan, which is an unknown fraction of the Orc population, can rival the Kaldorei on their own… Which is silly to me.
…. These things are what envelopment and hit and run tactics were designed to defeat. Vorskla River and Grunwald. were supposed to be clear examples of this… The Battle of Vienna is another example of this against firearms.
…. Mordent Evenshade is the leader of the Shen’dralar….
He is like the Night Elf equivalent to Rommath.
Um, when the Nightborne did that, they were Highborne…
I do not think that is what that is describing. I think all that was said is the Kaldorei fought against impossible odds admirably.
The question is too vague.
All have the different strengths and weaknesses.
Depends on who is attacking whom and where.
Besides Blizzard never goes into specifics with resources and troop numbers.
If we are going by characters and characters only then its Night Elves hands down. Imagine if Faction Leaders were doing a tournament or something.