nightborne are pretty boring so who cares
She didn’t talk to Tyrande first. That was a flashback from the Insurrection storyline, and done so because the Horde players didn’t get to see the Alliance version. What the Horde got:
- Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Lady Liadrin says: I understand the struggles of the Nightfallen echo our own, First Arcanist. Addiction… betrayal…
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: There is a cure for our addiction, but it will take time to administer it to all of our people. First we must depose Elisande and cleanse Suramar of the Legion’s filth.
Lady Liadrin says: Cleanse it we shall. The sin’dorei bring righteous fury upon our enemies.
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: And the shal’dorei are stronger than you expect. When the time comes, we will fight beside you.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed.
What the Alliance got:
- Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won’t betray us and become the next Elisande… the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande’s oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that… we shall see where Elune’s wisdom guides us.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed.
Which was what the Horde player got to see during the Nightborne recruitment quest:
- First Arcanist Thalyssra says: I though our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won’t betray us and become the next Elisande… the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande’s oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that… we shall see where Elune’s wisdom guides us.
Thalyssra never went to Tyrande first before that Suramar Incursion quest.
It was pretty clearly Thalyssra making a decision without ever having gone to see what the Alliance or the Horde was like for herself, nor any Nightborne for that matter.
And after she fled from the Legion at Suramar, Suramar put up its shield and left Tyrande for dead to the Legion same as everyone else.
A single Night Elf, who was technically not a Druid, and we have no idea if he had any allegiances to Malfurion, Tyrande, nor anyone from Darnassus.
At least Thalyssra remembered this when she was in Nazjatar.
The Nightborne are still going around screaming “Lowborn scum!”
- Duskwatch Highblade says: I shall dispose of you, lowborn!
Duskwatch Highblade says: Lowborn scum!
Duskwatch Highblade says: The Nightborne will rule this world!
Duskwatch Highblade says: We are chosen to rule!
Duskwatch Highblade says: We are... the chosen ones...
And even in the Island Expeditions, lo and behold:
- Astralite Visara says: Lowborn scum!
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Which implies the Kaldorei were her first choice.
Clear how? Not very clear at all. If anything, this kind of proves my point:
Lady Liadrin says: The sin’dorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world.
This is a blatant lie, perhaps one of many Liadrin told to bring the Nightborne under the Horde banner.
And there were probably many natives of Suramar that got caught on the other side of the barrier… A non-argument.
No, several druids. You can find them in the caverns below the Arcendor.
But is that characteristic of Thalyssra? It really doesn’t matter what the Nightborne say, especially when they are hostile mobs. This was Thalyssra’s choice.
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I think viewing it as lies or propaganda is giving the writers too much credit. Liadrin more likely just falls into the large category of senile Horde characters that seem to have no grasp on reality.
High Overlord Saurfang: Not for nothing. We spill blood so that the Horde will endure.
Eitrigg: Heroes from my world once freed yours from the grip of tyrants. Now Azeroth faces a similar threat, so we have come to ask repayment of that debt.
Rexxar: But now, the horn of war is sounded once again. When I heard she had returned… I had to answer the call.
PC: ‘She’? Who do you mean?
Rexxar: Jaina Proudmoore. She once made a choice to spare us from her father’s tyranny. I respected that decision, and how difficult it was. But she could not forgive what Hellscream did to Theramore. She turned her hatred against all the horde. She went too far. Killed too many. Her quest for vengeance must be ended.
Lilian Voss: In life, I was raised to hate the undead. Trained to destroy them. When I became Forsaken, I hated myself most of all. But now I see it is the Alliance that fosters this malice. The human kingdoms shun their former brothers and sisters because we remind them what’s lurking beneath the facade of flesh. It’s time to end their cycle of hatred. The Alliance deserves to fall.
Nathanos Blightcaller: This war is long overdue. The Alliance cloaks itself in righteousness and piety. Rubbish! They spurn and revile anyone who does not fit into their narrow world-view.
Baine: There is no place for a warchief in a time of peace.
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Tbh yo, I dont really think its about that, I think its about pretty consistant turnover in horde characters, that make it hard to stay invested in the horse’s story.
Also why one of the reasons the alliance is generally written as lawful good incompetent, cuz the power level is much in favor of the alliance.
But one thing that I dont understand is that the keep saying war is bad, but giving us these romantizised war plots and storys. It’s like meh can we move on already?
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The war is hardly romanticized , The alliance is fighting to end the war, thats as romanticized as it gets, fighting a just defensive war cause the other side wants to genocide you.
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Its is very much so, they could went with much darker story lines. Also one side dident even lose a character of note.
one side didn’t even delivered proper payback to the literal genocidal maniacs in the horde and you want to kill ally characters instead?
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Well, you just highlighted one problem unwhittingly, you know they saying about assumptions right?
i don’t think that is the only problem
i think that they just wanted to get to shadowlands in any way possible no matter how much little sense it makes. so they choosed sylvanas and the horde to be the instigator of that.
problem with faction wars is that of course that both sides have plot armor.
It implies a choice she took for granted, not anything she ever acted upon.
You said she talked to Tyrande first, but as far as we saw, she never did.
You just provided a clear example of Thalyssra never verifying anything for herself.
I don’t think you know what a non-argument is. The people of Suramar didn’t care about any of the Suramar natives that got left outside the shield. Hell, Suramar started using being thrown outside the shield as punishment as soon as they figured out withdrawal from the Nightwell was irreparably crippling.
Yes, the Val’sharah refugees, that were never involved with any quests that had to do with the Arcan’dor.
You were talking about how the Nightborne saw the Night Elves, which is not Thalyssra alone.
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Yeah cause that side lost a whole city with a attempted genocide of a whole race.
Aside from the fact she said it herself?
And that Liadrin is lying… Which has been my point this entire time.
You don’t know that.
Unrelated.
I mean, you can probably rule out all but 4 people if that’s the metric you are using, even though more people contributed to the Arcendor’s creation. It wouldn’t make much sense for Val’sharah refugees to be fleeing to just another warzone, so they were there for a reason, and that reason probably had something to do with growing a tree, which is what they do.
You have no idea what I was talking about. You are not even arguing my original premise…
You say it is a lie, but here are a few things that may be what lead to that:
- after the Highborn were exiled, the group that want across the sea later became the High Elves
- This group taught the humans magic for the Troll wars when they formed the pact with the bloodline of Arathi kings.
- As part of this, they sent people to Dalaran to teach magic and be part of the Tirisfallen, the group that later gave rise the the guardian, the first of which was a half elf
- we really don’t know much, aside from what happened in chronicles and other sources between the first guardian and the last (Medivh) so we might have to pick up in the time frame of WCII when the High Elves joined the alliance to honor their pact with the Arathi Bloodline, Lothor being the last of that line. The result was the Horde was beaten back through the dark portal.
- After WCII, in the expansion, High Elves that remained loyal to the alliance went through the Dark Portal to fight the Horde on Draenor (it was not outland yet).
Where were the Night Elves during this time? they never really showed up again till WCIII. The Druids were asleep and the sentinals were doing their long vigil on Kalimdor. As such, while the Night Elves may have been busy, in the dream for the druids and keeping watch for the Sentinals, Liadrin never saw one till World of Warcraft, or maybe WCIII: The Frozen Throne.
As a result, Liadrin did not lie, at least in no other way then by omission or not being in a position to know what the Night Elves were actually up to in that time frame. She is not old enough to remember the Night Elves as more then stories before meeting them. All in all
Is right, all Thalyssra had to do was as Tyrande what happened after the war of the ancients. Most you can prove is she lied by omission, but again she had no contact with the Night Elves before the Night Elves, in some fashion, made it to the Eastern Kingdoms and all she said her people did is from her perspective so only way that would be a lie is if you think the Blood Elves were never High Elves.
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I feel like the Troll Wars don’t really qualify for “saving the world”. The trolls were in that region first. The humans and elves were the Old Horde to the Amani in this case.
Teaching humans magic and creating the Guardian of Tirisfal are also both… Not necessarily great examples. The humans proved to be not the best at using magic without garnering demonic attention and the Guardian position directly lead to the Burning Legion sending the Old Horde to Azeroth in the first place.
Then on top of that the High Elven actions during the Troll Wars made it possible for Ogrim to find Azerothian allies once they arrived in Azeroth, making them an even bigger threat than they would’ve been otherwise.
Contrast all this to what the night elves accomplished: The War of the Shifting Sands. In which the night elves did in fact save the world from the qiraji.
Liadrin’s claim is on shaky ground at best.
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Lets see, this happened when? post exile and before Kalimdore and the eastern Kingdoms were aware of each other?
I am not denying that The Night Elves were busy or doing things during that time. I am attacking the argument that Liadrin would know about such..
It is, but it is also ground that only one that would know what was going on in Kalimdore during the period after the exile of the Highborn and before the Night Elves made contact with the Eastern Kingdoms would be able to dispute. More or less anyone calling Liadrin a liar almost seem to take the stance of “we know it, so she should know it”.
If Liadrin did indeed know about the War of the Shifting Sands, then she is an outright liar, if she did not then all she has to go on is what she has heard or read about while she was growing up and in recent years. So any lies she tells would only be those of omission or those she was told by other High/Blood Elves that have not been disproved by her experiences.
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Didn’t we learn all about the War of the Shifting Sands in Vanilla when the Qiraji Gate opened? High Overlord Saurfang personally fought in those battles alongside the night elves. I find it wildly unlikely nobody talked about the last massive war against the bug people.
And even if they didn’t, the formation of the Might and Kalimdor and the Ahn’Qiraj War is another world-saving war the night elves fought in while the Quel’dorei were in isolation.
I find it unlikely that Liadrin isn’t aware of either silithid conflict.
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A war that happened AFTER the Night Elves were made part of the world again. Even if people talked about it, it would not dispute her claim that, as far as she knew, the Night Elves were asleep or hiding in trees for who knows (besides us players and the ones involved in the 3rd war) how long.
Wrong. the war you just stated happened after the fall of Quel’thalas, after most of the Quel’dorei became Sin’dorei, and those that were not were exiled. Anyway, the time frame being refereed to starts with the exile of the Highborn and ends with, if nothing else, when Kael’thas meets Tyrande in WCIIIEX: The frozen Throne at the latest.
Agreed, but here is the most her knowing about the second one would change: “For many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world, but I have heard tales of what they have done since the 3rd war”,
Really, if you want to keep this up, provide proof that Liadrin would know about things like the War of the Shifting sands, or other things that happened in that who knows how many millennia from the exile of the Highborn till, lets say Warcraft III. Anything that happened in Warcraft III and after would likely be talked about.
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By that argument, since both were originally Highborne, the Sin’dorei are much closer to being her people then the Kal’dorei who hated the Highbourne even back before the Sundering
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