Even still, those fantasies were a small part of the core kit of the class and of the spec. The large majority of spells and abilities were kept even though the specs were focused in on one role. They were not changed into something that they’ve never been before, and they didn’t have their kits, both class and spec, gutted to make room for a completely different playstyle that contradicted the entire history of the class in the game. Heck, these changes for DKs only took place after a single xpac, while Legion deleted Survival even though it had existed for 6 xpacs.
Yes or no answer please. @Darkeforge, you answer this as well please.
No caveats, no BS, no heming and hawing.
If you are playing a character who can tank and dps, and a patch removes your ability to tank, is that a major change, or not?
If you are playing a character who deals damage at range, and a patch removes your ability to do so, changing you into a melee damage dealer, is that a major change, or not?
The correct answer to both questions is yes.
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Yes.
Is this change equal to being 100% ranged one day and 100% melee the next? I would say no.
But the changes are similar in scope, at least far more similar in scope to each other than either is to a same role rework, like Combat to Outlaw, Demonology, Shadow, Marksmanship from WoD to Legion, etc.
Similar doesn’t mean equal.
The horse is dead.
The horse has been paste for a few years now I’m sure.
I’m pretty sure an Unholy DK used Corpse Explosion on it when they lost their tanking talents.
We have been beating a divot in the ground where we think the horse used to be for nearly 4 years now.
Maybe we’ll find some Azerite down there eventually.
Nobody is denying that. What is being discussed is that the SV Hunter was more devastating. Let’s look at what happened:
Blood pre-Cata: Can tank. Can DPS. Has Blood spec themed abilities like Heart Strike and Dancing Rune Weapon. Has baseline DK abilities. Has Runic Power and Runes (the core mechanics of the class).
Blood post-Cata: Can no longer DPS. Lost a few abilities, while retaining the majority of abilities they had prior. That’s it.
Survival pre-Legion: Ranged DPS. Has Survival spec themed abilities like Explosive Shot, Black Arrow and Lock and Load. Has baseline Hunter abilities. Has the ranged weapon and the pet (the core mechanics of the class).
Survival post-Legion: Can no longer be ranged DPS. Lost all Survival themed abilities save for traps. Lost a large chunk of baseline Hunter abilities. Lost the ranged weapon which was a core mechanic of the class.
Blood lost one of its two roles. Survival lost its one and only role. Blood lost a few Blood abilities. Survival lost nearly all Survival abilities. Blood is still a DK spec at its core because it maintains the class’s core mechanics. Survival is no longer a Hunter spec at its core because it lost one of the class’s core mechanics.
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Stop the victimhood contest. It doesn’t matter.
They were both fundamental changes on a core level.
When I said no caveats, no BS? This is what I meant by caveats and BS.
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What do you expect here? We’re not the ones who even brought this whole DK thing up. Trolls came in and said “DKs got changed too so shut up” and we are trying to explain to them why not only Hunter deserves to be looked at by itself, but how much more significantly it was changed than DK.
They were the ones who came in and basically said that we have no right to want ranged SV back because they thought that they were bigger victims. This is the Hunter forums after all.
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scrolls up
reads
shakes head
…And this is what I get for not reading the entire thread.
Mea culpa.
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Tbh I should have brought it up earlier than now. Can’t blame you for not reading a 300 comment thread though, lol.
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DK debate is useless. You can’t equate a class that was changed after it’s first iteration failed to a class that was changed after 12 years.
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I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s 1st iteration failed so much as it would have been impossible to balance DKs being able to tank and dps on all 3 specs.
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@OP, how long you ask?.. probably until the servers go dark…
If you really do play at that level you damn well know that melee DPS are not equivalent to ranged DPS. This is so much the case that actual melee Survival Hunter proponents talk all the time about how being melee is a huge barrier for the spec in PvE v.s. the real Hunter specs and demand all sorts of compensations and additions to make the spec desirable without making it ranged. Then there’s Hazzikostas himself who bluntly said that most Hunters don’t want to play a melee spec, as well as… you know… all the Hunters on the forums and elsewhere who talk about how a melee Hunter is too unfamiliar and unappealing for them.
Downplaying the difference between the ranged-to-melee change is the dumbest argument I’ve seen from you yet and that really is saying something. As I said elsewhere, in most other major spec changes that spec still preserved a significant degree of its prior iteration. Not Survival, which preserved literally nothing beyond some peripheral baseline class utility. The only truly comparable situation is Demonology which was also a terrible decision.
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I never said they were equivalent, but dps is still dps. Your only job is to damage the target, period. That isn’t the same change as one day being a dps, and the next day having to be a tank. Completely different playstyle and mentality.
Since we’re at it, I also never once said it wasn’t a big change. I’m just tired of seeing certain people go into any thread discussing these types of things, and pretending SV was the only major change made to a class throughout WoW, when there are plenty of examples of classes receiving major overhauls, good or bad.
Notice said person’s thread about how to redo RSV. I haven’t posted in it. Because I know what it is and I’m not trying to derail it. However, anytime someone posts anything about SV, the same people come in and turn it into a crying match because "their spec was changed the most"and they want RSV back. We cannot actually discuss the current spec on the forums because of certain people. That’s a problem that needs to stop, period.
Yeah because there isn’t a difference in playstyle and mentality between melee dps and ranged dps.
Please quote the person who said melee surv was the only major change made to a class throughout wow.
Are you talking about Spinner’s huge log thread about how to redo all 3 specs + a 4th spec? Because you did. You’re a liar.
Edit: This thread
And? If you start a thread talking about survival and people want to go in and comment about survival, it’s still on topic.
Except you can. Most topics in the forum are complaints about why people dislike survival or why people are arguing about it.
I mean, I only did a cursory glance into this thread, seems to be pretty much focused on making survival as it is better.
3 Roles exist in this MMOrpg.
-Tank
-DPS
-Healer
Its the triangle of a classic rpg.
Ranged dps, melee dps, magic dps, etc those are TYPES of dps. Their role remains the same. Dont bring up some bull**** about having a different role in raids. It doesn’t, it does the samething a melee dps does… hurt the bad guy until it dies. What makes you think range dps is different is because they are often assigned to do a certain mechanics since it wont hurt their numbers. A melee can still do them.
In the end, DK, Spriest, Disc priest, etc all got a big change… as big as each other. They dont play like they used to, some have to change mentality, etc.
So to keep arguing over such subject is getting childish, more emotional and less logical.
1 Like