I think personally the biggest issue is they are extremely difficult to kill.
I wouldnt mind all the CDR, damage or whatever if they were a viable kill target.
Solo
DH 320
DK 204
War 148
Rogue 129
Itâs up there with the other strong melee and itâs climbing. The top of the 3v3 ladder Rogue is exceedingly close to DH and DK.
You meant to say aside from Paladin melee, Monk melee, hunter melee, druid melee, shaman melee. As fast a rogues are climbing you can add warrior melee soon as well.
Rogue is no better than warrior. Rogue is 4 on a list of 9, closing in on 3rd.
Rogue is better than the majority of melee classes, rogue is better than the majority of ranged classes, all but 1 warlock.
Rogue is stronger than nearly every ranged class in the game and better than most melee classes. It is better and in some cases by a wide margin.
what stats are you looking at bro?
cause on check-pvp, the story is a bit different than what you posted here
https ://drustvar.com/leaderboard/solo-shuffle-stats/us
this is the best version because you can see top 5000 across both NA/EU
idk why dude insists on 2100+ in the US being a valuable number set outside of it proving whatever dumb rep point heâs trying to argue in a given thread
oh i see, thank you
you should use check-pvp, it aggregates eu and us
at any rate, itâs not ok to count 2 or 3 rogue specs together vs 1 spec of other classes. if you look at just sub or just assa or just outlaw at over 1800, on us, they are at 4.03%, 4.37% and 1.83% of total melees, as opposed to 27 for Havoc, 22 for UH, 17 for Arms and 11 for Ret.
All rogue specs taken together are in the 5th spot of melee.
pretty middle of the pack if you ask me
It is if that class only has 1 DPS spec where rogue has 3. You said Rogue in your statement not sub.
Iâm comparing all DPS specs of one class with with the DPS specs of another class. In the case of hunter I looked at melee specs because the poster cited melee specifically.
Imagine if Paladin had 2 DPS specs, leave Ret where it is and have a crusader spec. Ret goes from 73 down to 30 because crusader is better, players swap. Crusader is at 73. Paladin DPS is now at 103, itâs not a stronger class? Increased paladin DPS climbing the ladder by 41% but Paladin isnât a stronger class? You didnât really mean that did you?
So if they added two specs to paladin DPS and 3 times as many paladins climb the ladder the class isnât stronger? Ok if you say so. Instead of 73 paladins you have 219. Those other specs donât make the class stronger? If they were roughly the same in terms of strength it would still be about 73 paladins divided by spec.
If Monk was at 50, while affliction at 50, destro at 50, demo 50.
So all Monk DPS players at 50 while lock is at 150. Warlock isnât a stronger class? Of course it is.
holy christ man
rep is a terrible metric, but in the fantasy where it isnât, WW/Demo/Aff/Destro all having equal rep means dps could be relatively balanced
you canât compare a pure dps classâs rep to a single dps spec of a class that has a tank AND healer spec
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this is just silly lol
based on this you could say that frost DK is fine because DK is fine cause itâs carried by Unholy. utter nonsense. Same goes for Fury.
Or you could say that Outlaw is such a great spec right now for PvP.
no. you have to look at a per spec basis, especially in a discussion of nerfs.
Letâs say Sub is OP and needs nerfs. In what world would it be ok for those nerfs to affect Outlaw as well? Same argument again, but for Unholy and Frost.
but even so. go to check-pvp, US+EU, 1800+ in Solo. Rogue as a class is 3rd from the bottom. lol. 2200+, 4th from the bottom.
Includes evokers, which shouldnât even count, they are new and generally unplayed compared to the other classes
No you canât say any of that. I didnât say anything like that. You made it up. You spewed nonsense then claimed I did.
What you can say is Frost may not be as terrible as it appears because unholy is one of the best specs in the game so why play frost? If you gutted Unholy frost would climb because top players swap specs but very likely not to the same degree. Players figured this out and go unholy.
I didnât make the case that specs like frost donât deserve attention simply because unholy is so strong. You just pulled that out of thin air.
Yes look at things on a spec by spec basis in terms of nurfs. I never argued differently.
If your talking about looking at objective stats like whos winning the most games and climbing the ladder you should look at class. If you donât you will always have 3X the rogues having success over monks. 3x the warlocks over Shadow priest.
In a magical world where balance was achieved the numbers would roughly reflect this.
SP 100
Aff 30
Demo 35
Destro 35
Relative balance example.
30-35 SP and 100 locks divided by spec is balance?
You canât have 3 times the Warlocks climbing the ladder over Shadow Priest and claim itâs even remotely close to balance.
I didnât. I compared Rogue DPS to Warrior DPS etc⌠The only exception is when he mentioned melee specifically then I looked at how classes having a melee spec were performing in that specific dps role.
But to your point. You made mine. You canât add all these other roles then compare to a DPS spec, your right! In the same way you canât count a monks sole DPS spec then disregard at least half of a rogues performance by leaving two specs out.
iâm not agreeing with you, but for the sake of the discussion, letâs say you are right.
as a class, rogues are 3rd from the bottom, with 4.27 %, above mages with 3.56 % and evokers with 2.17 %.
so how could anyone in their right mind say they need nerfs?
I still canât believe there are people in this thread defending sub rogue in its current state. The only thing my feral does better is cyclone. Everything else the rogue can do better, including self heals.
Actually, I can also heal teammates with my regrowth 8 times to top off their healthbarâŚ
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No clue what you are referring to with those stats. A good rogue is better than a good âwhateverâ your stats are trying to portray.
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bro, go to check-pvp. fr the Stats page. have a look around.
you will see rogues as a class at the bottom
you will see sub, in 1800 SS at a grand total of 2.5% of the population
2.5%
this thread is a joke, really.
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All the âdudingâ in the world doesnât change the fact the class is way to gifted with the ability to do everything. The catch is the class is not easy to play properly and thatâs why the stats are the way they are. Itâs not because the spec is terrible. Most players donât have the patience to spend time getting good at it. It requires a lot of solo intuition on what is going to happen next, and not just in the current fights you are in.
Iâd be playing one right now, but honestly⌠Iâm not going through the whole leveling process and campaign yet again. I already picked my âpoisonâ with feral so Iâm sticking with it. I might try resto for a bit if feral doesnât at least get a few touch-ups in the base druid tree. At least let us cast freaking sunfire in cat form.
Iâm doing pretty good in blitz brawls with feral. Just got over 2k team rating, but mostly fluctuate between 1700 and 1900.
Again as Iâve always stated the rep isnât gospel itâs an indicator.
Itâs an interesting question. The answer is they are not 3rd from the bottom. Your doing what Notorious said we shouldnât do, youâre adding in healers/tanks/DPS.
Rogues are competing in a DPS role so you have to compare to DPS.
Rogues are at 4.8% in 3v3 according to the link above. That puts you behind the same classes as I mentioned plus shaman due to elle crushing.
In terms of nurfs and balance in general, itâs a scale of relative performance. If you compare rogue to DH or Lock or DK they may not seem to be deserving of nurfs, compare or play against a rogue as anything else and they are to strong.
In the end if Blizzard is going to say rogue is fine, Rogue is a baseline of the PvP experience we want, no nurfs. By not nurfing rogue this is essentially what they are saying. If you take the classes above rogue down, rest up a bit you could have a better game. The problem is they often do one but not the other or nothing at all.
Whether a class is nurfed or buffed should be in relation to the other classes given some kind of performance metric. There are cases where a class should be nurfed because itâs bad design.
A literal one shot should be nurfed even if the class isnât overperforming because of a terrible weakness somewhere else in the kit. That same spec should be given compensating buffs until itâs roughly as competitive without the one shot carrying. The problem is they do one or the other or nothing at all.
Maybe the only reason Rogue is where it is, is simply because they can cut down a DH, or have all the defensives to survive against the even stronger classes.
This is why I always advocate for taking the outlier at the top down first, the classes dominating the ladder, then make other changes. Or make smaller changes to lesser performing class (the ones performing the worst) while bringing down the steamrollers of PvP.
As it stands relative to the masses Rogue could use some tuning downward if you want a balanced game. Itâs not the worst offender. If at the same time they took the same approach to every spec lowering or raising power you as an individual might find the same measure of success.
It should be, the W key melee should be higher in solo shuffle and rogue should be higher in 3s.
Agree with pally ,druid and hunter, forgot about them
This is certainly not a point exclusive to rogue, this is a melee meta unfortunately
All that being said I did play a lot of sub games last night, I usually play strictly assa.
Shadowy duel should probably not be able to be taken at the same time as smoke bomb, and it definitely should not act as a shadow dance, it could actually probably just be removed.
Somewhat true. It doesnât give the damage bonus of shadow dance so if you duel and donât dance then youâre not going to do much damage during duel
I went to check-pvp like you keep telling people to do and I looked at the bracket that I personally care about which is 2v2. I donât like solo shuffle because queue times take forever and the reason I enjoy 2v2 is because my brother plays wow and it gives us one night a week we can ignore family duties with our kids etc.
At 1800 the number one played dps class is rogue with 619 players. 333 of which are sub. Second place dps is DH with 617 players, 601 of which are havoc. Then we have hunters at number 3 with 374 players, 243 of which are BM.
So at 1800, sub is then 2nd most played DPS spec - not melee spec, but all dps specs.
But letâs look at 2200. When it comes to dps there are 7 sub rogues, 4 havoc dh, 3 unholy, 1 bm, 1 survival, 1 arcane mage and 1 arms warrior. This means sub rogue has 1.75 - 7 times higher representation than all other classes.
Finally, if we look at 2400 then there is a single dps spec which is 1 player and itâs a sub rogue.
Since 2s bracket is the only one I care about and this a bracket in which sub rogues easily dominate - there is nothing you can say that will change my mind saying they arenât OP.
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well i guess you are right.
but you should also be aware that itâs like saying âi only care about m+ and x spec is OP there so it needs nerfsâ. or like saying âi only care about 1 v 1 in front of orgrimmar and x spec always wins so they need nerfsâ.
iâm not saying your concerns are not valid in 2s, where rogues have traditionally dominated, especially sub rogues. rogue+mage has always been something in 2s, no doubt about it.
iâm only going to say that itâs disrespectful to other players to suggest that a class or spec needs nerfs or buffs based on a personally narrow experience of the game. âi only care about x so this is what needs to happen to make me happyâ has no place in an MMO. might not even have a place in a single player game either.
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