I mean compared to ret it’s night and day
But nothing is truly “difficult” anyway
Just takes reps
Requires a bit of a conscious attempt to tidy up gameplay because there are plenty of people who’ve shot their body at arena for 20k games to see little or no improvement.
Not that there’s anything with that if they’re having fun.
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This might come off as me trying to defend Ret or something (I’m really not, barely play it these days) but who do you think had an easier time in that shuffle tourney? Kalvish who was basically never the kill target and had constant outs off the gcd with basically zero counters or Vanguards who had almost every defensive on the gcd trying to avoid multiple mass dispels when he was forced to bubble and then being unable to use another major defensive for 30 sec after?
Personally watching Pika control 2-3 people at once while killing someone and taking a selfie at the same time is insane to me and I just don’t see players of other specs doing stuff like that generally, but I really think it’s more a case of the spec having a really high skill ceiling than being hard to play by the average player necessarily.
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i think the tournament example is really not aligned with this statement, and i disagree with the statement itself
it doesn’t surprise me at all that vanguards was under high pressure every game and kalvish was chillin, and that definitely goes to the skill ceiling question.
but i think that example doesn’t show us at all how useless a player who only keybinds dmg abilities is, or one that doesn’t track drs, or a dozen other archetypes of skill floor player-and for all of them, it’s been my experience that skill floor rogues are much harder to lose to than skill floor rets on pretty much every spec and role i’ve played, day 1 or day 1000
fixed this statement
Yep, there are idiots in here trying to defend how busted rogue is.
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I’m saying Kalvish had it easier in the tournament and he also had a higher impact on the game due to his spec having a higher skill ceiling.
I personally disagree with this right now. I have encountered quite a few Sub rogues that are terrible players (not saying I’m great-just objectively they are bad after looking them up) who have destroyed me in BG’s and arena because they can’t die and after wasting every defensive, vanishing 3 times, and passively healing back to full they kill me when I have nothing left. I think the spec is very strong in just average hands right now and gets extra nutty when a god-tier rogue player pilots it.
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Lmfao. Keep telling yourself that. Anyone here defending it is just bakrd out of their minds
Yes, and your going to beat both of them generally speaking. The difference is the high skill Ret is a lot easier to beat than the high skill rogue (depending on comp) and your not generally going to lose to both of them in the same range of play.
I find the Rogue skill argument fascinating. Let’s overload a specs kit and say that’s ok because it’s a higher skill cap. I’ll leave my own spec out of this…
Let’s take an enhance shaman. Let’s add CloS and evasion to the kit, along with gouge blind and shadow step. We’ve raised the skill cap here.
Low skill floor shaman doesn’t lose any more games than they already did even if they never use those abilities. High skill shaman goes nuts winning more and more games, mid shaman wins a bunch more as well, any player (no matter how poorly they play) that binds even one of those and presses it at some point has a higher chance of winning even if it’s tiny. How did we lower the floor exactly? We didn’t, we simply raised the ceiling. Meaning every terrible shaman still loses/wins the same amount of games as they did the day before. Raising the ceiling doesn’t mean you lowered the floor.
According to the “general discussion” this is ok, because we’ve raised the skill cap of shaman. This has always been the issue with Rogues they have a busted kit, justified by “skill cap” doesn’t really lend itself to great game balance.
Yes, a terrible rogue is easier to beat than a terrible paladin. Assuming the paladin can? What? Bubble when the rogue can’t use vanish or CLoS or evasion, shadow step away, smoke bomb, duel or some absurd CC to survive? A rogue has 4-6 ways to survive and a Ret has 2-3. They get confused with all the choices they have?
I will grant you there is a difference here. The question is… At what point does it flip? It’s not very far up the skill range. Rogue defensives are how much harder to use exactly? Using a defensive another class like enhance doesn’t even have because of less defensives available. This makes it harder to win? Words like crazy, absurd and outrageous come to mind.
Instead of doing damage for 2 globals cause that’s all you have you swap to CC for two globals to stay alive (CC another class doesn’t have). I mean let’s get real on the differences here.
There is a gap at the very bottom and at the very top in terms of playing rogue as well as any other class, everyone else is within reason.
i dig; my point there is that the tourney example doesn’t demonstrate the spec being or not being hard to play for an average player. that’s the part i disagree with, i just didn’t want to carve up the sentence in responding
i can respect that
here is your allotted 1 reply per thread, level 25 poster:
no, absolutely not. a bad ret paladin mashing his face into his keyboard with crusade up, vs any spec that doesn’t have the healing or control arsenals to forcibly stop that damage, threatens to kill anybody of any skill level. a bad sub rogue mashing his face into his keyboard with blades up is nowhere close to forcing that level of respect/punishing the inability to provide it
ok yeah not a great example for that in hindsight
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Ok…
Can we keep it in the realm of reality here? No one is smashing their face on the keyboard.
In the realm of reality I will grant you getting value out of wings is easier than shadow blades + dance. Here’s the issue though. If you can’t press 6-12 buttons in a given order you are not going to be effective on any class. Again a bit easier here but to what degree?
If you can’t burst as sub you’re not making much further on paladin my friend. How much harder is KS/smoke bomb+ damage than HoJ + damage. Yeah you can argue it’s harder, by how much? How much value does smoke bomb add vs the difficulty of pressing it? The second you learn how to do a basic burst rotation and push another button or two to setup/maintain CC you are better than the Ret even if the Ret learns the same.
Again overloading a classes kit then claiming it takes more skill is a remarkable way to look at balance.
Spec has 5 abilities = loses every round
Spec has 10 abilities = wins 50/50
Spec has 15 abilities = Wins every round.
Maybe this isn’t balanced.
Advocate for balance, by unloading the stronger classes kit and increasing the terrible specs kit. Or overload everyone.
This would help those low skill ceiling rogues somehow right? I mean you would raise the floor by removing smoke bomb, or removing gouge, Vanish etc. They don’t have to worry about all these other great abilities and could learn to push a few buttons in the right order.
Rogues at the bottom would win more games after you nurfed the kit and raised the floor. Right?
%100 simple as this. Too much damage for the control they have
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Zero shot you actually think ret is harder than sub right
It’s funny because I genuinely don’t know if you understand hyperbole
I do which is why I asked if we could keep it in the realm of reality. Try reading before you quote it might help prevent your confusion.
You know, let’s talk specifics. Rather than → Rogue has arguably the best kit in the game, that alone justifies some sort of imbalance.
Some are literally making the argument that overloading a class with powerful abilities is a justification for that class being stronger in itself.
It’s a circular argument of… we made a class stronger by giving it more buttons to press, the class being stronger than everyone else is justified because of those buttons we added.
If your concerned about balance just remember they have more buttons. We don’t want to give you more buttons because it makes it harder to win by raising skill cap-n-all. No, it didn’t make it easier for Rogue to win cause skill cap-n-all. Trust us…
This is the nonsense that not one of you can make a rational case for.
Actually reading the essays you attempt to write kills off more brain cells than a 5th of vodka so I’m good chief
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No it just helps you to realize you don’t have many to kill off. I wouldn’t want to read anything in your case either.
Day 3 of asking for sub nerfs
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I can show you how to beat Sub. First , dont fight when he has shadow blade AND dance. Second,hunter mark and kite. Now we talk about cd. If he use cos immunity, you can root and explosive trap. I forgot its tar trap or steel trap for root. Use after he cos. If you use before, he can remove it. I think both works too. If he use evasion u can scatter shot. If he vanish shadow strike to you, feight death and ice trap then keep distance. Always cc dance then fight. No need to rush. All these hunter only come out and burst will die fast if they keep pressing aim shot and rapid fire.
I totally agree.
The big problem is the possibility of resetting everything until it fits perfectly, there should be some type of mechanic to prevent it from having so much toolkit available over time.
not to mention that rogues can use a defense that allows them to be immune at the same time as they attack (just like a paladin) while other classes (DK) only have damage “reductions” and not immunities.