Sure there are minor tells like, dr’s, positioning, etc. But one of the biggest tells which is tracking cd’s just doesn’t work against sub rogues because of vanish cdr. It’s really hard to tell exactly when they have their big go where you can 100-0 you solo since if they vanish super aggressively it could be back to back. That’s the most problematic mechanic of the spec. They could remove vanish cdr reduction and the spec will be fine. It’s fine that rogue with blades can 100-0, but when you can just reduce the cd on your go and go again, or reduce the cd on your defensives and just extend the game infinitely till you get the perfect go is the problem with the spec.
Only good rogue teams are worth complaining about. The spec is very top end favored. Even the difference between the tournament rogues and the r1 rogues is massive. Sub at least is pretty bad
This mentality is why we don’t have new players. All their complaints are valid even if they’re misguided. We can always explain to them why they’re wrong.
Rogues by our very design are frustrating to play against. It’s better to own that imo.
I agree with this. The most frequent complaint I come across from new players is not understanding why rogues can use abilities while “they’re still on cooldown.” - a good example of one of the inherent flaws with relying on addons rather than learning class mechanics IMO. Although modern class mechanics as a whole group is pretty daunting lol.
I’ll never describe modern rogue as fine but yeah it’d solve a lot of issues that people seem to be facing for sure.
While I don’t play anywhere near there, I’m aware. but again, I think it’s the dismissal of the complaints from the bottom that is in error.
IMO People deserve to be heard. The game wasn’t as complex when some of us learned and got to dip our toes into pvp with more forgiving rules. So explaining that trinketing because rogue popped everything doesn’t mean that you’ll have trinket again next time is worth while.
I mean rogues are designed to be frustrating, they’re a spec that’s only kill window is in stuns. That just what sub is. Either they have enough damage to kill in stuns, or they are useless. The problem is they can have that damage to kill in stuns much more often than they did ever before.
But the thing is though, bad rogues have so many different flaws in their gameplay which is why they are at lower ratings. It’s easy for even bad players to survive a poorly done rogue go. At lower ratings rogue is fine, because they don’t know how to properly abuse the things that make rogue op.
Listen bud. Void.GG just held a soloshuffle tournament. Wizk, Nickthedruid, Mvqx and Kalvish (sub rogue) played 18 rounds in the finals. Kalvish won 17 of those rounds against some of the best players in the world.
Kalvish wasn’t the one who died in the game he lost btw.
So yeah… other specs exist and none of them really counter a good sub rogue.
i don’t get why you would trust a tournament, where the sample size is so small (18 rounds for the finals,for instance) instead of check-pvp where there are thousands upon thousands of rounds played and thus far more reliable statistics
I always enjoy these kinds of threads, because its all about “well this top player did this to that top player” like they’re suppose to be the staple of how the entire game is designed.
They’d rather argue about top player vs top player than just looking at the class to see how to counter. A simple stun or defensive or disarm during shadow dance ruins the whole dance. Would rather zugzug the whole fight and use zero cc abilities than use any of theirs except for offensively lol
Honestly the tournament had nothing to do with alerting people to how broken Sub Rogue is, it was just the latest example among many. I was even complaining about it last week:
You just run into it less so see less complaints about it which is exactly why statistics from check-pvp are worthless because anyone with an IQ above the legal definition of mental retardation could see the spec is 10/10 in damage/survivability/control/ease of use. Yes that’s right, despite everyone claiming Sub is hard it’s not. Half of your offensive cd’s are off global and can be macroed together and you can randomly toss out defensives and not be punished for it. The only difficult part is using your incredibly bloated toolkit to control the entire enemy team while maximizing every global to solo the kill target at the same time which isn’t even an option any other spec in the game has to strive for.
what i don’t get is that on one hand people are complaining about FOTM rerollers and we see a surge of DH and UH players, 10-15 times more than sub at high rankings, but on the other hand they say sub is so broken
if it was really so broken, why aren’t there more? why don’t you run into more subs, since that’s what FOTM rerollers do?
Maybe they believed Sub Rogue was hard or maybe they just weren’t aware how OP it was. Sometimes no matter how OP a spec is it’s just not fun/played a lot.
in pvp, stealth lasts a max of 15 seconds for all classes. If you can’t get into position within that time, then you failed your stealth. After 15 seconds, there’s a 5 sec cd on the ability.
Sap needs to be melee range again
Shadow strike needs a 15 sec cd now that rogues have access to shadow dance which allows them to use stealth moves for a minimum of 6 secs every minute. Sub rogues get 2 charges of this move and it lasts 8 seconds. This means that sub rogues have infinite 25 yd range gap closers for 8 seconds, twice a min (other specs get it for 6 secs every min). EDIT: I WAS MISTAKEN, it only has the range component when in actual stealth and not while using shadow dance.
Evasion needs to be 50% dodge, not 100% and they should remove the the cloak of shadows evasion talent as well. Rogues should not have a near immune bubble vs melee 10 seconds (and another 5 seconds with CoS). Yes, they can get stunned by some classes (not all because some stuns you can dodge and CoS prevents magic stuns).
Remove cheat death - not just from rogue but all specs. If you die you should die. Not only that, but it’s a 6 min cd which shouldn’t exist in arena.
Lower sub rogue dmg of eviscerate by 40%. Now that the talent that increases the dmg of finishers by 30% when find weakness is working again, they need to nerf the base dmg of finishers. In no world should a class that has a ton of cc be able to also kill someone in a cc chain. Instead cc is support and it should be to set up kills for your teammates.
Those are the changes I would initially make to rogue and then adjust afterwards.
The big issues I have with Sub is the double vanish+cos physical immune+evasion. By the time I can fight back and actually put some pressure it’s extremely hard to turn the fight over. I don’t understand the idea of cos also giving physical immune. Maybe for Sin rogue sure but I don’t feel like sub needed for defense?
If you look at a thread in the arena forums called “WTF is this melee meta in Arena and Shuffle” you’ll see someone posted some solo shuffle stats as of 12/3/2023
Above the 1000 rating there are 5497 havoc players and 4427 unholy dk players and only 1552 sub players.
Above the 2.1k rating there are 306 havoc (5.57% of the 1k rated players making it to 2.1k rating) 180 unholy (4.07%) and 45 (2.90%). So basically, just because there are less players that are at a certain rating for sub rogues it doesn’t mean that less people are able to make it but also that there are less sub rogue players.
Also, this is just solo shuffle. If you look at the 2v2 bracket, sub rogue is the #1 dps above 2100 overshadowing ALL other dps specs. Above 2400, there is 1 sub rogue and 1 ww monk for dps. You can view this information at drustvar. c o m
Finally, before you say something like, “Oh 2v2 is a meme bracket” there are quite a few people that play it. According to drustvar. c o m there are 6,911 players above 1800 in 2s 4808 in 3s, and 13,554 solo shuffle players. In other words, there are a LOT of people that deal with sub rogue in the bracket they are extremely powerful in.