Agreed. Tell Athernon this. Maybe he’ll listen to you.
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Hell no, I don’t want my class to basically play itself. Ret is stupidly overly simple and just not engaging.
Okay but counter argument as I also play outlaw:
- double hook with a double double hook if you spec into it with hero talents
- sprint is on CDR
- evasion is OP and on CDR
- cloak of shadows
Sure it costs energy, but so does WoG (holy power) and that doesn’t mitigate.
I haven’t bothered with the other rogue specs, but it’s not like they don’t have anything either. I know that sub as double shadow step.
Except for Paladin having passive damage reduction in the class tree, a 1m+few seconds divine protection is basically all they have for most mechanics, and that 20% is barely enough. Blessing of Protection rarely ever works against mechanics, and Divine Shield is too much of a long cooldown to be considered a reliable defensive.
Even when using all defensives, topping myself with WoG, I will still occasionally die to unavoidable mechanics because 20% every ~1m just isn’t enough.
Outlaw has passive run speed. Paladin with freedom is roughly as fast as your base movement speed.
I disagree, but not because of the rotation/dps aspect. I think ret is more interesting as a support dps. Saccing, WoG (unfortunately blizzard disagrees…), Cleanse, BoF, etc. You have a ton of group utility that make it interesting. The simplicity of the rotation is something other melee specs can learn something from though. Not saying other melee should be as simple, merely that some of the hidden complexity some melees have that require WAs to properly track is not something ret suffers from. I consider this a good thing.
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Not to mention the range portion of DS is uneffected by greater judgement and does less damage then the base portion of DS. It’s just there for extra damage at this point.
The only thing I agree with you with.
DK’s interrrupt is 15 yards, but yeah it’s slightly ranged. if a DK needs to stop a caster in range from casting a spell it’s just better to death grip them at that point.
And this is what I mean about not reading people’s entire post… The level of disrespect is unbeleivable.
I do agree with this though, we should had been given a gap closer… mostly because we have talents that makes FV deal more damage in melee but useless at range…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! oh wait your serious… Guess rogues should have it good enough with sprint then.
We don’t benefit from some of our talents if we use it ranged.
There is a downside bruh.
Uh no it don’t. But ok.
Why do you involve yourself in conversations when you don’t even listen to other people talking to you?
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Yes and No. Stormbolt is a ranged interrupt for a 20 yrd range but only if the target isn’t immune to stuns. Its not a traditional interrupt but it can be used as one in a pinch. But that is assuming you talent into it. I tend to avoid it myself as the warrior tree is already kind of streched thin on choices.
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This is funny…
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I guess you haven’t played enough outlaw to know the bugs surrounding hook. Rogue’s will gladly give up hook to have your mid-range builder and spender and range stun that cost no resource.
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Word of advice…evasion does nothing against MAGIC damage!
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Your steed is on a 45 second CD when talented…sprint is on a 1 min CD when talented…Its got CDR…but will you have the uptime and energy to use builders and spenders to activate CDR?
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Cloak does nothing against PHYSICAL damage…its a magic immunity…
Your ONE skill Divine Shield is evasion and cloak used together…BUT, you still have a SECOND skill, BOP.
**** Your best comparison is giving the example of WOG? That’s a heal…LOL Funny how you even want your heals to be free…lol…Rogue’s have crimson vial which is a HOT and cost 20 energy! Outlaw rogue’s don’t talent into having more energy so 20 energy is a lot! Its 1/5 or 20% of my total energy. My main builder, sinister strike is 45 energy…take that into consideration…
Unless Adrenaline Rush is up, guess what…no DPS…
So when boss’ do those swirlies thing on the ground where melees have to run out…I get to stand there and wait while you continue to pew pew…in a fight if that happens 2-3 times…guess what??? I dramatically lose DPS and CDR while you don’t lose anything…
So, I’ll gladly take your mid-range builder and spender with no resource management playstyle any day.
It’s a learn to play problem if you are dying to mechanics with mid range builders and spenders. If you can’t play easy mode with no resource management and mid-range abilities…IMAGINE playing the other melees…
You have your own passive to increase movement speed…
Your argument is invalid because less than 10% of the Rets use their support abilities to support their team. That means for every 10 PVE RET paladins, one actually use their support abilities. 90% of the other RETs just DPS, some don’t even interrupt because they’re spoiled with their mid range play style and they’re always not in melee range because they’re afraid of dying due to lack of melee practice.
This guy probably falls into the 90% of the RETs who don’t interrupt because he’s always out of range.
I have played enough outlaw, and the loss of Acrobatic Strikes is disgusting. I refuse to main it until it comes back. However that doesn’t change anything I said in regards to defensives.
I didn’t say it did. You have cloak of shadows for that, which has a waaaaay shorter CD than Divine shield.
Have you even played Outlaw? You can have massive uptime on sprint lmao
That’s what you got evasion for, which will be up roughly every 30 seconds. It’s absurd how OP this is. If you time it right and turn properly you can negate a lot of attacks. Think mistveil bite, or even the bleed boss in brackenhide.
BoP and DS are both 5m CD. You have roughly 8~10 evasions and 2.5 cloaks in the same span, not to mention a lot of feints in case you really need to reduce damage taken.
Tell me you haven’t played outlaw without telling me you haven’t played outlaw.
Right, because unavoidable damage is something you can avoid by going mid-range? 
You should become a raid leader.
Tell me the numbers.
Don’t care what others do, and I certainly don’t care how my argument would be invalid here.
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Don’t talk about defensives when you’re a paladin. That’s a LOL
You must be a god outlaw player.
Again, you must a god outlaw to have evasion up every 30 seconds. I want to see…please show me
LOL…my guy is funny…Some people need a breakdown…
Feint = 35 energy 15 sec CD
Evasion = 0 energy 2 min CD
Cloak of Shadows = 0 energy 2 min CD
Crimson Vial = 20 energy 30 sec CD (20% HOT over 4 seconds)
Energy regen baseline = 10 energy per second
Outlaw rogue energy = 100
Now in a 3-6 min fight with mechanics…
*How many feint can you spam before being energy starve?
*How many evasions do you think you’ll get? CDR taken into consideration
Tell me which boss does physical damage?
*How many cloaks do think you’ll get?
*******I’ll help you…in an average current mythic raid boss kill…you get one, no more than two cloaks depending on the boss…which boss does physical damage where you need to spam evasion??? Are you tanking???
You’re funny when you have two OP immunity skill every fight no matter the duration…
Its again, a learn to play issue if you are dying…
If unavoidable DAMAGE is that punishing…how are other classes surviving and how are groups killing bosses?
Your argument is again pointless and invalid…*
Again, learn to play issue…
You have 20% movement speed when mounted…your steed is faster than everyone else’s movement speed buff…You have two charges of steed which is perfect because very rarely will you need 8 seconds of movement speed…you can plan ahead and use them to navigate anything…
Again, learn to play issue on your part…
If you’re as good as you say you are, you would not be dying to UNAVOIDABLE damage as you claim. Other guilds/groups are killing bosses without dying…
Again, learn to play isssue…
Read my break down answer…
I think bad Rets that might think that they are doing well on the damage meters in M+ forget how useful Ret utility is for that content. Bad on them, if they’re not helping the group.
I agree with you that some actual melee specs can be more difficult to succeed on in PVE than Ret with its total package. I don’t PVE now, but I use to. I know it can be awkward sometimes in raids or M+ to use instant nobility to escape a mechanic, and then also use another to get back in the fight. In a lot of cases, the entry or exit of a mechanic is possible with no movement speed increases, but that takes practice. Using instant mobility to move exactly where you need to does take skill if there’s a bunch of mechanics going on.
Ret having some situationally very helpful immunities is an asset, rogues got some also as you mentioned, and knowing which mechanic requires which of them is essential to use them properly, while once every five minutes divine shield does solve all of Rets problems, I’ll give you that one too. Overall, I don’t think rogue defensives are far behind paladins if at all. But if you think paladin is designed excellently, you’re always welcome to play it as an alt or main and still play rogue.
When I do barely touch some PVE now, I’m always surprised how much Flash of Light and WoG heals, it’s really not bad healing in PVE if used sparingly enough to not go oom. In PVP Ret usually cant oom because FoL and WoG dont move healthbars, so they are wasted GCDs and effort if used in combat. Somehow, crimson vial is allowed to heal for a bunch in PVP, although I will concede that you don’t have Lay on Hands to use once in a while.
For PVE it is kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Players get a leader to choose their teammates for group pve, including choosing specs based on the tools required for the content. If you’re personally lacking the tools that you want, you could change specs or roles going forward, or your leader could more appropriately select specs to participate. The additional option is asking on the forums and elsewhere for changes if you feel a spec is less than adequately effective in some way.
Like I said…
We don’t want Blizz to nerf Ret Paladins…
We want them to buff other classes to be at the paladin level…
Even still, RETs are in a great state and a little nerf on PTR should not be dramatic…
Divine steed is a gap closer.
I consider myself pretty decent on Outlaw, but that’s besides the point. Maybe you should join the Ravenhold Discord and ask how to play Outlaw.
Mind you, I haven’t played outlaw beyond leveling to 80 this time around, so I’m a bit rusty hence it’s a few seconds off. Here you go, I press it at 6s and 39s which is 33 seconds apart but may be faster or slower by a few seconds based on RNG: https://imgur.com/a/Q5AYZIS
Yikes, let me break it down in this case.
It’s 25 if you take Numble Fingers, which you should. On top of that you should be playing with Float like a Butter fly, which reduces the CD of feint by .5s per combo point spent.
Evasion is affected by CDR, as I told you before.
Which is relatively low for a magic immunity off the GCD, mind you that if you want to compare it to paladin, they are all on the GCD except for Divine Protection.
Again, only 10 energy with Nimble Fingers. However the goal of outlaw is not to heal, it’s to mitigate and dodge.
Which gets increased by haste, which you’d know if you’d actually play it
Ever heard of Vigor? You usually take 2 points of it to increase your energy by 100 and energy regen by 10%
So you’re actually telling me that rogue has it better because you can often cast it more than once compared to Divine Shield?
1* Paladin has 1. Again, Blessing of Protection is Physical only, just like evasion, which you can use roughly every 30 seconds.
You’re aware that on higher keys you get hit by DoTs and other AoE ticking damage that deals an incredible amount of damage right? This is often double your healthbar over the duration. Those are without all the bolts going off. If your healer runs out of cooldowns, you only got as many defensives you can go through.
The only one that needs to learn to play is you.
Alright then, I’ll bite. On outlaw my base speed is 130% movement speed. In stealth it’s 150% which also counts during subterfuge. On outlaw I will outrun mounted players while in stealth with sprint active.
On paladin my base speed is 105%, on steed it’s 240%, which is indeed faster than mounted but also on a 45s recharge time.
Blessing of Freedom with Unbound Freedom gives me 135% movement speed, which is only 5% more than Outlaw base speed. Considering Outlaw relies heavily on Subterfuge which gives you 150% movement speed, you do the math (if you’re up to it)
Your breakdown answer is as flawed as all your arguments in this thread. You don’t know anything about outlaw so you’re not in a position to use it as comparison.
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But then,
LOL…that video shows a rogue with 3.8 mil hp…must be in all greens? FYI…mythic rogue raiders all have over 6 mil HP…
Target dummy don’t fight back! Plus you are playing HO which is far far behind my friend…please post something more relevant…
It goes to show why you die too “UNAVOIDABLE” damage…
If you’re that good…how come you don’t raid mythic? Doing research doesn’t do you any good…
Please read what I post…goes to show how attention to detail you are…
Makes no sense…I proved you wrong and that’s your response?
Why are you dying to UNAVOIDABLE damage if you’re that good?
LOL… It goes to show you don’t know how to play outlaw…energy regen and haste are worthless once you reach .08 GCD…
Now I know you’re just copying and pasting from Wowhead…
Again, it goes to show you are clueless when it comes to Outlaw Rogue.
All endgame outlaw rogues play KiR…It’s DPS far surpass HO…
Just stop copying and pasting already…You have no clue what you’re talking about…
You are clueless when it comes to defensive skills. That’s why you die from what you claim to be “UNAVOIDABLE” damage as a paladin.
Last I check its immunity to physical damage and harmful effects…
You are clueless…
Higher keys? How high of keys do you push? I don’t think you’re a 1% title pusher. Therefore, it doesn’t apply to you…stop trying to make it sound like you’re good…you die UNAVOIDABLE damage…while others live…
From the video you posted about you pressing buttons for outlaw, you are wearing green gear and don’t do any high keys…It’s proof because you have 3.8 mil HP…
Just stop it…
You are clueless about your class it seems…45 sec recharge and having two charges?
My guy…just stop…you’re digging a hole deeper for yourself…stop embarrassing yourself…
It’s a learn-to-play issue for you as you die of “UNAVOIDABLE” damage, as per your statement.
I know more about outlaw Rogue than you, it appears…your copy and paste info from Wowhead is a failure…
Based on the info you posted….you have no clue how to optimize your class that’s why it’s a learn to play issue. That’s why you die so much.
I will even provide you with the answers here so you won’t have to go research.
HO builds needs between 8-10 percent haste
KiR builds needs between 18-20 percent haste
KiR does easily 10% more dps in AOE and more than 5% in single target.
Your rogue in green gear is playing HO which shows you’re not a 1% mythic+ pusher so don’t bring that subject up.
The energy regen you get from haste is so minimal, you’ll lose a tremendous amount of DPS if you keep stacking haste.
You mean 0.1%? No I’m not, but last time I checked my retri was within the 1% this season.
At this point you’re not a clown, you’re a whole circus. Thanks for making me laugh though, I needed that 
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Haha. I like you my guy….
Proved you wrong this whole time…and that’s your best comeback? Because I missed the dot?? 
Please post on your pusher toon. Prove me wrong?
But, we all know you’re smoke and mirrors.
How does someone who dies to UNAVOIDABLE damage be top pusher??
If you can’t….we know….its okay
Congratulations, you flapped your wings hard and knocked all pieces off the board 
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Please go work on being better so you can stop complaining about dying to damage that others survive.
Bless your heart 
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Still waiting for your post from your pusher toon.
But at this rate, we know you’re a keyboard imposter.
Have a good day.
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Now’s your time to advocate to merge the EU and US forums so I can
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