I agree on these things shouldn’t interact with your class or be reliant on making it work, I’m not denying the current covenant choices are terrible. But these likely are not the final forms and they’ll eventually settle on something that’s a minor amount of benefit. However there are a lot of people who are just wannabe minmaxers complaining as if convenant abilities will be why they’re stuck in Normal mode progression as they have been the last 3 expansions.
Yeah good luck getting something like that through. People lost their minds when LFR had different loot tables in WoD. Just try explaining to them that the ability to change a core mechanic of the expansion is locked behind progression of a higher level than they can do.
You’d think, but I think you and I are both hip to the fact that Blizzard doesn’t care and their main focus is people who progress in Normal.
Or you know, they do the actual realistic option and dial back these abilities and go to what they said where they will be a minor adjustment to how your class plays but largely cosmetic. But this is Blizzard and they like to make overbearing systems so horribly designed then forcing you to engage with them when you don’t like them because their developers have some kind of ego problem. I.E Playing Outlul Rogue. “Oh you all hate Roll the Bones? Well here’s Slice and Dice back, but it’s significantly weaker but you still have to use Roll the Bones. Oh and we’re not going to make the ability more interesting or fun, you just gotta deal with it. Btw your 6 buff miracle power is too strong in that window so we’re blanket nerfing your spec’s damage.”
The issue though isn’t the ability of how convenient covenant switching is, the issue is more Blizzard doesn’t know how to tune things, nor do they know how to give choice to players on something without it being a loaded question where there’s only ever one right answer and if you answer anything else they put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.
Don’t get what was so hard about not making these be a make or break for a lot of specs.
Bzzzt, wrong, I could care less how others have their fun. It is when they try to tell me how I should be having fun. I am open to suggestions on how to improve, but I like to take those suggestions, guides and everything and mesh them to find what is fun for and works for me.
Again, if one wants to min/max all the more power to them. I will min/max within the restrictions and choices I make. As far as content? as long as I can do heroic to AOTC and a weekly M+ up to ilvl cap (I.E. +15 in current season) I’m happy.
Keep in mind, if the small, but potentially very loud, minority did not exist, we might not be having the discussion as is.
I don’t push high end and I don’t like it .
What I do is a little of everything and I want the right ability for what ever situation I am in .
Just because I’m a world questing random battleground lfr hero doesn’t mean I don’t want to be the best one I can be.
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Yes 10char
swapping out spells for literally every single covenant for every single boss is like asking for gear swaps in M+
not happening, nor should it
restrictions should be looser on covenant swaps than they are now, but they should not just be free for all, meaningless choices, thanks
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this literally happened all of legion with no issue
why should covenant choices be any more restrictive than talent choices?
and i think it shouldn’t be a thing. see how opinions work?
because it’s literally the main system of the expansion and should have some measure of consequence?
Thing is it doesn’t matter what Covenant ability you choose when doing LFR. You and I both know that. So that concern from players not only wouldn’t be warranted, but it wouldn’t make any sense.
Blizzard on paper wants them to actually matter though. For each one to not only feel different but impactful. Players who have been around the playground for a while know that Blizzard isn’t known for their balancing at all. So when trying to have a system like this one, it’s better to have some player agency in terms of being able to earn the right to change you abilities.
Imo if they were wanting to go this direction it would be better suited when the game also reflected that in your talent choices. Like the old talent system that we have in Classic. But when the players get used to a system that allows them to switch up their talents on the spot then they’re going to wonder why there’s a restriction on something like Covenants.
I think it would be better if the abilities were actually good along with the ability to earn your right to swap Covenants. Because that way, the ability is actually strong and players who know what they’re doing will use them properly. While at the same time players who play more casually are also feeling the usefulness out of their Covenant choice.
Do you find it terrible that other people want you to have fun the same way they do? I think there’s a bigger question here to ponder. Is it toxic to want people to enjoy the game the same way you do? Like I told before, there are ways like guilds to play with likely minded people.
I stopped trying to help people because of this, they feel like it’s an attack on them to try to help. And I still can’t understand why someone would feel it’s bad. You can just simply say not you don’t want someone help, there’s no point in putting the fault at the person trying to help you.
We’re all minorities on the forums. But it doesn’t mean we can’t provide good feedback. Being a minority doesn’t mean you’re wrong too.
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Didn’t really insinuate that anyone who plays casually should be. Players who play casually aren’t going to be affected by the restrictions too bad because their goal is more towards enjoyment then how effective they are. Nor would they be affected negatively by higher end players having the ability to swap Covenants.
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I don’t understand how a choice that can be changed is somehow meaningless.
I can change between Destruction, Affliction and Demonology freely (with some exceptions, like not being able to change it in an arena/M+ or mid-combat of course).
These are all meaningful choices. Each spec has different strengths and weaknesses and can be good in different areas.
I would argue that locking you into a Covenant (or at the very least making it irritating to switch) makes the choices less meaningful. I’m no longer considering the situations when the Kyrian ability would be better than the Necrolord abilitiy, with both the generic and class specific ability, especially considering Soulbinds, because they’re no longer options to me.
The only option to me with Covenants is what will generically give me the best outcome.
That’s not really a choice that I ever have to think about.
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It might not b e toxic to want people to enjoy the game the way you/I do but then there are some things that are toxic:
- not taking a class/spec, even if it is a top player of said class/spec, because it is not the “meta”
- calling someone “bad” just because they choose differently from you
That said, wanting others to enjoy the game the way you do can become toxic if you start coming across as the way you enjoy the game is the only way to enjoy the game.
In essence it boils down to the old argument between “it does not matter if you win or lose, it’s how you play the game” vs “if you don’t play to win, don’t bother playing”.
Well, there is trying to help and then there is telling people to quit the game, Quite a few players might have gotten on the wrong side of others or been subject to the wrong kind of “help” too often.
Guilds split because of things I have mentioned. One thing to keep in mind is even if we can find the like minded players, we still can run across the other kind.
However, treating others like trash just because they don’t do things “your way” is always wrong. Do you think it is right for some players to put other players down for wanting to play their way?
In essence, let people play their way, you play yours, if you see someone struggling ask if they would like ideas on how to improve. If they say yes, give it to them, if they refuse, let them be.
However, under no circumstance should you call someone trash for doing things differently, that is what breads contempt and leads to situations like we have here.
That’s not justificatory.
It’s the main system of the expansion.
Okay. Why does that naturally lead to “the system should be one where you’re arbitrarily locked into the equivalent of a talent choice?”
A thing I want to add on to this is that our talent choices aren’t somehow not meaningful just because we can freely change them. Our talent choices are very meaningful irrespective of that fact. I would be fine if we couldn’t switch cov abilities while we have an ongoing instance (say a raid, or an m+ key), but it makes no sense to lock it out when going between types of content, and the “meaningful” bit doesn’t make sense as an argument to me.
In the same sense, our azerite choices aren’t made more meaningful just because we have to pay gold to change them. It just becomes more annoying (and we are incentivized not to!) to play other specs and experiment with builds.
Are our essence choices not meaningful just because we can change them in rest areas? Would they be more meaningful if it took a great deal of effort to change the essences we have active?
It boils down more to do you want to prioritize personnal choice over team choices? Yes I’m fine with a player playing in a suboptimal way, but if I have the choice to fit instead a player that plays in the more optimal way. Why would I put the more suboptimal choice? Isn’t that putting your team 2nd?
I don’t take most often non-meta picks because they are harder to fit in a team. I don’t think they are bad for taking non-meta picks, but they aren’t helping themselves if people recognition is what they’re going for. I can appreciate a good non-meta players, but basicly the player needs to be so good that I can look past his handicap. I normally also evaluate people with logs. I put performance over everything. And I won’t waste my time calling people trash, if they don’t perform well they’ll be removed from the group if I’m leading or I’ll look for another group basicly that will have an easier time.
Well, I’d say yes and no. It is if one refuses to even try a different way, but in set groups or guilds, people should also be willing to work with each other, including how the others play.
This is the crux of the issue, there are those that do think such and they are the ones that are ruining it for others, they are the ones some want to “stick it to”. Ones like you, I have no issues with.
Keep in mind, I am one that has put forth ideas like we can eventually earn the other abilities, especially if the covenants have to “team up”.
Barring that, I want the covenant abilities to be within a respectable % of each other (so low that only true min/maxers would even bother switching and a modicum of skill can easily overcome the discrepancy),
I think this is incredibly optimistic.
But even if we assume that Blizzard pulls off something they’ve literally never been able to accomplish before, there’s still going to be stark differences in utility.
Looking at the general covenant abilities, there’s no way anything the others do even comes close to what the Venthyr ability is, which is a personal Warlock gateway on a pretty short cooldown, shorter than the debuff on the actual gateway.
If that ability had of existed within the context of BFA, it would be a gamechanger. It would have made how you approach the fights in the game completely different. It wouldn’t just affect Method or guilds like Method either, people would factor it into strategies no matter the level of content.
Which is the problem at a utility level that covenants pose. You don’t have to be a min-maxer to take advantage of stuff like DH’s new Shadowstep, Hunters ignoring LoS, DK’s pulsing grip, or the pseudo-Stampeding Roar and Gateway that Covenants offer.
Even if Blizzard pulled off a miracle and managed to balance the actual numbers, Covenants will always be a choice that has a “best” and “worst”, and people will make decisions in what they choose, and who they play with, based on that.
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What if there was a way for everyone to choose the covenant they want, and the ability they want- AND swap their ability as needed, while still retaining Blizzard’s goal of choice? This has been mentioned elsewhere to some degree. To put it as simply as possible: have classes gain their covenant’s UTILITY ability on joining, but place the COMBAT ability within the soulbind trees. Narrow each class to three combat abilities (currently there are four- one for each covenant), and have those three abilities unlocked at the top of each soulbind. Each covenant would have their own flavorful version of the same three abilities.
Example:
A monk chooses their covenant and gains their utility ability.
Within that covenant, the monk has 3 soulbinds to choose from (2 right away, 3rd later in the story, per Ion)
One soulbind unlocks a ‘weapons of’ ability, which is a variation of the Kyrian combat ability.
Second soulbind unlocks an ‘order’ ability, which is a variation of the Venthyr combat ability.
Third soulbind unlocks a ‘strike’ ability, which is currently the Dark Fae combat ability.
The damage type and flavor text would align with your covenant choice. Celestial/arcane for Kyrian, nature for Dark Fae, etc.
Benefits:
Players can choose their Covenant without worrying about not being able to swap to the perfect combat ability.
Players can work towards unlocking three different combat abilities, which they can swap to depending on the situation.
Blizzard will have slightly fewer abilities to balance (3 vs 4 for each class).
Thoughts? Potential problems?