How can we remedy this, together?

Lore Story Forum
84

Well, I never said anything about “Refugees”, but more on the level of Immigrants (also, the Gnome’s were refugees for 3 games; and the Gilneans are still refugees). TBH, the only reason I toy with the idea is where the NEs would likely end up, and who their neighrbors would be (if they were forced to migrate to EK). Northern EK has a lot of territory that could quite frankly use some druidic love; as well as a lot of that territory simply not having enough of a surviving human population to really repopulate it even if it was cleansed. Its far enough away from SW to reduce “Human Potential” infecting the culture; and there is also Seradane up there, allowing access to the Emerald Dreamway.

To top it all off, their neighbors up there are people the NEs could get along with. Thanks to to the NEs influence, the Gilneans are not only the Kaldorei’s closest Allies; but also are the most nature centered Human civilization in this world. There are also the Wildhammer that take up many of the regions to the North, who are easily the most nature centered Dwarf civilization due to to their recognition (and even reverence) to the Earth Mother. Finally, the last remaining Horde race (the BEs), despite being an Arcane focused civilization, do still harbor a LOT of cultural norms regarding their relationship with the natural world (given to them by the NEs post the sundering).

But again, not approving of this plan … but there is enough “merit” to it for me to at least toy with theorycrafting on it. :smiley:

85

I don’t think that is something we can agree on. For me, it completely guts Kaldorei culture, and just add to a long list of humiliating defeats and abuse. As posted in the quoted OP, a Night Elf poking it’s head in a story is like poking it’s head in a guillotine. The proposal of NEs settling in EK, or Tyrande dying, would be more evidence to this. It’s something the Night Elf community is sick of.

86

I would like a return to the cold war status the Alliance and the Horde had at the start of WoW. There has been too much blood for the Night Elves in particular to seek peace with the Horde baring an extraordinary change. It would be a good change to see a peace maker/seeker rise from the Hordes ranks following BFA, preferably a new character as the Horde badly need some major figures in their narrative.

While I am not a Forsaken fan (quite the opposite if you know me :slight_smile: I would like a shot at answering this. The one thing I would argue the Forsaken need most is new characters and Delaryn can fill that role. However, her desire to stay with the Forsaken needs to be fleshed out if she decides to stay. I don’t think she should be built up as new leader for the faction but rather be a character who works on the frontiers of Forsaken territory. That of course assumes she isn’t going to do this to Sylvanas at some point.

I do think it would be possible for a peaceful resolution between the Night elves and the Horde that doesn’t result in death. But I can only see it in one way. Sylvanas surrenders herself to the Night Elves in an effort to save her people and the Night Elves agree to imprison her for a century for every Night Elf who died on Teldrasil.

It would depend on the circumstances but in most cases I would welcome the Horde’s positive intervention in the Alliance story. For a different example than what you posted the Horde learns that a group of the Lightforged Draenei is planning a purge of any members of the Alliance who do not follow the Light as they interpret it with the Horde warning of the Alliance of the danger and offering to aid in stopping them.

87

The way this story is written, there’s no remedy. There’s at least four fanbases with conflicting wishes for the story. Someone is getting screwed over, and they’re going to leave.

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88

Sylvanas dying i’m fine with, i made my peace with that fact long ago, but i would like the forsaken to be able to have their lands back (i have no interest at all in nelf landsyou can have everything except azshara) and to make it so we do not have Calia lead the race.

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89

Well, I like theorycrafting and mind exercises like that. I’ve also been one who’s noticed the poor execution of the NE storylines, but unless people are expecting to have them as powerful as they were in the RTS (which, plainly would not work for an MMO PC race) … I don’t know if I’d consider it “abuse”.

Few races have had more personal story-threads resolved as the NEs in WoW; few retain as many signature characters as they do; few have rebuilt things lost so long ago (Wild Gods returning, Mother Tree healing). And … tbh, the fact that the NEs (when fighting alone) would continue having a more and more difficult time in battles against the Horde is something that always made sense to me.

They’re a largely deliberately military stagnant civilization for cultural reasons; that rode on the high of a MASSIVE military lead against their western neighbors for years … but also squandered it by not even attempting to keep up with the explosive growth those neighbors have experienced in both tech and tactics over the last decade (even before BfA). Shouldn’t that result in a loss of their edge?

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90

They say Night Elves have to be raised willingly… And as much as I don’t like that lore, ever since I learned it, I considered the possibility that Delaryn was raised solely so she could betray Sylvanas…

… Personally? I think that is going to happen. However, I think for the sake of Forsaken players, she will have to identify to the Forsaken plight before she does it. I would rather her be ride or die Kaldorei, but I also see that as unfair to Forsaken fans.

Maybe, but I still think it is worth talking about. So many flame wars about evil Horde and evil Alliance on the forums, and we all know I have participated in that quite a bit. Really, I think talking about this is an open-minded way helps us understand each other, and even though we disagree, I think it is overall best for the community as a whole to recognize the overall good things for the player base, rather than be resentful.

Yes please. On a real note, Calia could have been really cool. Like a “reclaiming the throne of Lordaeron” type… An aggressor from the Alliance. Instead they did this weird Death/Light thing. Which… I mean, why?

Theory time, Eyir and Helya be working together? Wouldn’t they both have reason to go after Sylvanas? Could this be the union of The Light and Death?

I mean, I wouldn’t even consider that as truth. Night Elves reside more in what is Natural, but that is arguable stronger than any Goblin tech. People always make claims that Night Elves are technologically stagnate, but I think that is a short sighted claim. They live within nature, not seek to dominate it… Which I think makes them more progressive in the technological department than anyone else.

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There is a reason I specified “militarily Stagnant”. Fact of the matter remains that it is the ONE area of their civilization that the NEs haven’t really adapted to face oncoming threats. Mechanical Tech (rather than Magically Inclined Tech) has ALWAYS been shown to present the NEs with problems. Ancients (one of the most powerful forces the Kaldorei have) were shown to be having issues dealing with even Vanilla Era Goblin Shredders (let alone the newer models). Their primary form of seige equipment is STILL the over-glorified Ballista’s they call Glaive Throwers. And thank GOD chemical fire doesn’t function like its supposed to in this game. The list just goes on and on, on these issues…

Honestly, the idea that NEs can just ignore Tech Creep just “because” is sort of absurd; and essentially suggests that their power-fantasy should come directly at the expense of several other races.

Like, do you know how much I would kill for just one zone devoted to my PC race (let alone 2ish the NEs got in Legion)? Or for Blizz not to be SO lazy that they soft-retcon Gallywix’s atrocities to justify why he’s still our leader? Do you know how much I wish the ONLY thing that keeps my PC race relevant (Tech) wasn’t constantly the victim of the needs of the story? Gobs and Gnomes developed Flying Ships back in WotLK; Subs back in Cata; and full-blown Aircraft Carriers in WoD; yet we’re supposed to believe that the Kul Tiran navy and Golden Fleet are absolutely integral to winning this war? Neither of us have OUR capitals back either for that matter… Gnomergon is a pet dungeon now instead lol! :stuck_out_tongue:

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92

And vice Versa… I don’t think we have seen night elves struggle because of military tech of the Horde, we have seen night elves struggle because the narrative demanded it.

I mean, historically, Mechanized infantry and Armor has always proven to be ineffective in dense forests against guerilla fighters. Add the Night Elves druidic and divine magic to the equation, and you basically have no reason why mechanized tech should be effective at all, and yet it is… Because Blizzard just decided it would be.

93

This discussion becomes a lot more clearer with the Nerglish translator installed. or…

Mrglm flrlknaklmmr gmrglmrgl fr mr flglm huummrg mmgr glgk Mmmurlokmurg skmmmrgkmmrg mmngknakmr.

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94

I’m gonna just drop the Power Level stuff, as we have differing opinions on it’s importance. And that’s a good thing. Different insights and all that. Gonna focus on the newer questions to keep the discussion on track, there’s some good stuff in here.

I don’t disagree that Sylvanas was going to take a step too far in her machinations that required intervention, but that could have been solved internally, both keeping Sylv around and solidifying what the Horde stands for without killing her.

Especially if Vol’jin was still Warchief. Going back to that whole Horde is family thing again.

Going back to Delaryn, as you raise some interesting ideas involving her.

I do not oppose Delaryn growing in importance to the Forsaken story, I do not mind her acting as a catalyst for peace with the Night Elves when this all ends. But if she’s going to be a Forsaken character she needs some development and she needs it yesterday as well as interact with more Forsaken. So far she’s done nothing except pop up in Darkshore and shoot some arrows.

One thing I’d like her to do is solidify her position as a Forsaken. Having some ties to her past life as a Night Elf is fine, but I think it is necessary that if push came to shove she will always stand up for the Forsaken. We already rag on Baine hard enough for seemingly not prioritizing his people, I worry she may fall into a similar trap.

As for potential characters to work with the Forsaken cast may be rather lackluster, but Nathanos, Belmont, Lyndon, Velonara, and Amelia Stone all are good picks to show Delaryn’s integration within the Forsaken ranks and the differing methods of dealing with their state of undeath. Show her developing a Forsaken mindset by interacting with them.

Which as an aside brings me to good old Nate. With Nathanos being a likely front runner to becoming the Forsaken leader if Sylvanas is removed I feel interactions and a working relationship with him would be key to her relevance in the Forsaken story going forward.

Maybe for the Horde it will, but honestly? I wouldn’t wish a Blizzard civil unrest/war story on anyone.

Is it bad that I’m slowly warming up to the idea this was all a Old God hallucination?

The current alternative seems to be another humiliating loss for the Horde after another civil war that ends in another round of Musical Warchiefs.

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95

I do disagree, actually. I don’t believe it was an inevitability except in the sense that we know the devs had it planned (they said something about her getting “a reckoning” back around the MoP era sometime).

Regarding Delaryn (and Sira), I’m still of the opinion that they’re going back to the Alliance. Something seems to be in the works that’s going to involve the dead and undead, so they’re setting up a bunch of Alliance-affiliated undead who can move that part of the story when the time comes: Sira, Delaryn, Calia, Alonsus Faol, Meryl Felstorm, and now Derek Proudmoore. It’s a pattern.

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96

There are a lot of things I would have done differently for sure. I actually run a D&D campaign set in Azeroth. Despite people claiming I have an Alliance bias, I looked at the immediate aftermath of Legion and concluded that Sylvanas would play a better cold-war than Anduin.

This was before BfA was announced, and actually before I knew Sargaras would stab Azeroth. So basically, I assumed Sylvanas wouldn’t do as she did, and rally the Alliance against her. Instead, I assume she would use Genn and Jaina’s hate for the Horde against the young and inexperienced peace loving Anduin.

Diplomatically keeping in good favor with Anduin, and thus driving a wedge between him and other Alliance leaders.

The Faction conflict that exists in that scenario are Alliance leaders acting on their own against Anduin’s will. Because the Alliance is splintered that way, the Horde is winning. However, most of the fighting happens in the EK, as I write the Night Elves as their supposed to be. Isolationists, and hesitant to get involved in conflicts outside their immediate concern. However, rogue Kaldorei groups are contesting Azshara.

An interesting observation.

I had a theory earlier in BfA that with Bolvar’s ability to speak with the DKs, Sylvanas and Forsaken are also starting to fall under his sway again. I theorized that a lot of these undead characters are popping up to play in some kind of conflict with a new scourge.

I am not sure how that would play out, but its fun to theorize.

97

This thread emphasizes several key story blunders the writers have made which will have lasting consequences for this game.

I think the most damning of those mistakes is kicking off this faction pride expansion where only a select few can say they have any, as well as writing themselves into a corner where the only way out is an ending that won’t satisfy anyone.

I fully expect night elf players to be dissatisfied with whatever ending they cook up, because blizzard has neglected to build the Horde up with anything while still maintaining a status quo. Meanwhile, the horde is getting villain batted yet AGAIN! And many players only satisfaction is spitting the other side and fueling more toxic behavior. Something that blizzard has regularly encouraged with consequence.

The only ending I see for this expansion is sub losses. And if this kills the game, so be it. Wont be the first time developer arrogance killed a game

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98

You guys will get to move to the moon. You’ll be fine, and cooler than ever.

99

Hmm, if I can chime in with my own thoughts on the Night Elves and Forsaken; I don’t want to simply get what they lost back, but instead get things that are better than what they had before. Let the races bounce back from their losses with improvements.

For the Night Elves, one thing I think would be cool is if they continued to as a race take on the responsibilities they’ve kept over history, and deepen their connection to the Emerald Dream / Nature. More specifically I want to see them find a way to be able to more easily shift into the dream, and build settlements within the Dream. Furthermore they are able to establish a bigger network of Emerald Dream portals that basically give them a ‘nature webway’ that lets them hop between various points in Azeroth and the Emerald Dream.

As for the Forsaken, I’d like to see their culture more diversified. If they are destined. Or to reclaim Undercity… then give them some manner of Necropolises, perhaps stolen from Northrend or built on their own. Basically large “mobile” fortresses, to ensure they can never be entrapped by a siege again.

100

Druids already have this–I don’t know if you know that.

101

Yes, but as I said a -bigger- network, and something used by the Night Elves at large, not just the Druids. Something just for their own race, not just a single class.

102

Maybe the problem is that you value the Horde over the individual races rather than the other way.

The Horde is irreparably ruined. They are nothing but the Warcraft equivalent of Naz!s.
Teldrassil was awful and Darkshore warfront doubled down on it.

Let the Horde die and have the Alliance die along with it.
Merge both factions, reset the reputations. Kind of like Bloodsails vs Bootybay kind of thing but less punishing.

And hey maybe this will give Blizzard enough excuse to remake Darnassus and Lordaeron.

Let the Night Elves rebuild a beautiful mini-capital in Moonglade (A reason to overhaul that greenpuke region.
The place is called Nighthaven for goodness sake.

Have the Undead rebuild their mini-capital on the actual surface of Lordaeron with the new Undead models.
No need for a huge metropolis like SW/Org something small would do imo.

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103

Speaking as a Night Elf main, I can tell you, what I personally want to see is the Night Elves building settlements in the charred husk of Teldrassil, out of sheer spite.

I want the Night Elves to show a “You will not break us” mentality, by rebuilding exactly where they were.