I´m afraid tou´re right. Your suggestion would have had some merit with anyone BUT the current writting team; this writting team proved itself unable and mediocre enough to guarantee the total failure of your scenario (I know you try to use it as some sort of soft reboot of pre-WC3; but go back and look at BfA´s narrative and the whole of Legion… do you honestly believe devs would actually reboot the Horde and villain bat the Alliance? Cause I have more faith on winning the big fat price on the local lottery than of that happenning ever with Afriasiabi et al in charge…
What do you suggest, O great paragon of writing? May we accept your judgment upon our poor and useless souls under the feet of the opposing faction, for not being able to interfere in the story which was not written by us and for us? Fortunately, the exit door serves the house, and unlike my characters I am not obliged to passively accept this poor plot spoiling my little fun in an game online.
Saurfang had hits of 180 ingame and A good War that prevented him from challenging Sylvanas. No one in the Horde mentions Teldrassil, if anyone mentioned it would cause even more instability than writers apparently do not want. The truth is that writing is lazy to the point of they wanting an event (which should never have happened and still more like that) to happen, and silencing both the characters and the players in the midst of this evil plot without justification. None of this has any meaning or immersion for me so it is, I do not care so much about your radical ‘winds of change’ and vengeful desires of punishment, do not worry so much, they just want to tell this story and they obviously do not know how to do it.
Oh, holy words.
Wow, glad that FFXIV exists, really.
That’s fine and all, but you’re route leaves no-one for the Horde to really struggle behind or for. With just how Hero-Centric the writing of this game has really become, gutting a race (let alone an entire faction) of strong representation is akin to outright killing that race/faction. This is especially bad for the Horde, because historically Blizz has a BAD track record of not building up replacement representatives for us after they’ve deep-sixed one. If you want an example of that … look at the Darkspear. Hell, look at the Bilgewater … where Blizz is just too lazy to write up a replacement for Gallywix.
On a functional level, you’d essentially be asking the ENTIRE Horde faction to pay for the Alliance’s story from the point your plan went into effect. We’d never have a part to play in any of the future stories, because we lack either the power or the Heroes to have such relevance. That’s a pretty efficient way to cause an entire faction to just bail on this game very quickly. Honestly, its sort of amazing how even after being called out on it, you don’t seem to realize there is only so much you can get away with punishing the Horde PLAYERBASE; for a story they had no control over (and didn’t want).
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I made a new thread about the Horde loss topic.
If you wish to discuss, I shall respond there.
I think this thread has been derailed enough.
Oh I understand that a Council works significantly better for the Alliance than it does the Horde. The point I was really trying to make was that the Title of Warchief is too much of a crutch. It’s just so easy to make a Warchief a villain, as the members of the Horde are expected to swear loyalty to said Warchief (save for the Zandalari) and obey their each and every command, without question.
Removing the Title of Warchief outright would probably do more good for the game than tossing in a character like Vol’jin again, just so we can swap them out for the next one a couple of years later.
I get where you are coming from, but the warchief position is deeply engrained into the hordes identity. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that the horde wouldn’t exist without a warchief. I’m not saying it’s perfect but it is fundamental to the horde.
It’s easy to say that councils or senates or whatever else are better forms of government, but they aren’t horde. Stormwind might do better with a Senate, the draenei might thrive by doing away with the theocracy, but this is a fantasy game where kings and warchiefs reign.
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Sure, cause the rest of the Horde leaders got up in arms against Sylvanas idiotic villainy after Teldrassil, amrite?
No, a council just guarantees not the villain bat of one but of SEVERAL Horde racial leaders (heck, Horde racial leaders got villain batted passively in BfA already!! no need to even made a council of them to dirty their curriculum).
Removing the title of Warchief and putting a council guarantees nothing but a repeat of this very same old trope, but now with several characters as Super Villains… if you truly want to see this stop, the only solution is basically replacing the ENTIRE lore team.
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At the end of the day, the very first thing the writers have to do is stop beating the Horde with the Villain bat and more over stop having our leaders sit by and let this stuff happen every time. We are on round two of this.
Fundamentally the biggest issue with this faction war is it is just a good vs evil tale. By painting the Horde as the villain rather than making the war a more nuanced conflict born out of distrust, anger and fear they destroyed any middle ground. It would make N’zoth exploiting our conflict far more compelling because it would be our own shortcomings leaving us open and vulnerable.
Instead the entire war is pretty much the Horde’s fault. There is literally no way the Alliance could have avoided this war. IT makes this whole thing a wreck.
I think the only situation which might ‘reset’ things a bit is if both sides lose so badly to N’zoth that it is humbling and highlights the folly of killing each other. I also think the Horde needs to contribute in some way that actually validates the fact that their crap has been put up with for so long and also acts in a way to help provide more of a sense of unity and belonging to the Horde as a faction.
I don’t think there is a great fix because it is such a mess but maybe, just maybe, it can be mitigated a little and they can shift things away from this disaster afterward.
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I think the Horde needs someone in the story team at Blizzard who will give the Horde a portion of the justification that they give to the Alliance for their actions. Have Sylvannas go to Stormheim to free Eyir from Odyn at the urging of her val’kyr, not just hunting around for more ways to get powers. She’s still gaining something from it, but it more a bargain than what it appeared to be. We need to get some time for our flawed viewpoints like how the whole “Horde Betrayed us at the Broken Shore!!!” thing went “We saved the alliance after their compromised spies led us all into a trap and they repay us by trying to kill the warchief!?”
I think the Alliance needs to be the threat that it is to the Horde. Night elves started out as scary reclusive race who could turn a walk in the woods into a horror movie for people who trespassed into their land, but in WoTs even while as Horde we struggled with a barebones force we outnumbered what, 8-1, they were written like tragic victims when we fought them. Dwarves wiped out a tribe of Tauren for the crime of living on land they wanted to dig up, I’ll be kind and say Jaina and Anduin let the Alliance attack Tauren settlements right after they found out about the whole Grimtotem coup attempt, and then let arms go to those same Grimtotem, and yet people keep thinking that the Alliance is kinder to them than the Horde has been.
I think that’s one of the big problems, Alliance actions get explained so well they’re excused and the stuff the Horde does is just thrown out there with no context in the way that looks worst. I think Taurajo is currently an example of this and used to be how I think it should happen. As a Tauren player mainly I wasn’t happy to see it go (that’s where the moonchicken was to get bear form!) but it was a satisfying questline, it stung at the beginning, then you put the pieces together, struck back and then ended with a triumphant (although sadly missing what I hear was an impressive appearance by Baine that had been part of the great gate bit) end where you not only got back at those who did that, but you pushed back an alliance force that was laying siege to Mulgore. For Alliance players from what I understand it’s a logical target which got misidentified and while there was an attempt to mitigate harm it didn’t work well. It was a logical military action, it wasn’t mustache twirling evil, but it was a tragic mistake. Then a book came out, removed a lot of what went on alliance side, turned the Tauren from that quest chain from plucky heroes fighting back against a greater force into what sounds like an extremist cell that needed to be banished from TB, and then Baine absolving the alliance as it makes no sense to be upset when a valid military target gets attacked. As no one has ever been driven to war when a military base was attacked in real life. And then there’s mess like Brennadam, where the story team apparently turned a Quillboar attack into a horde attack that only the Alliance sees. We don’t go there, no one mentions it, it’s just another senseless slaughter by the horde with zero explanation behind it.
And aside from that, the most amazing thing about this writing is that Blizzard has made me in a way support Sylvannas. I kinda warmed up in the later expansions where she seemed to be more understandable, but I always did my best to avoid undead questing as I didn’t enjoy some of the cold bloodedness of it. But then they whacked her with this villain bat of idiocy and in the prepatch questing basically rubbed my face into the pile of shame they wrote as a horde story, and well I can get stubborn so I want to see her vindicated just because the story nonsense of WoT bugged me that much.
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I agree with pretty much all of this. However, I still believe the title of Warchief is just too easy for Blizzard to abuse and make a villain out of. I honestly don’t know what they would replace it with, but I just feel like another Warchief is simply not the answer. Unless they put a Thrall or Baine in the roll, but both of those choices have most players at their wits ends.
I mean, the title of Warchief already does it. The roll demands the loyalty and obedience of the citizens of the Horde. Unfortunately, the actions of the Warchief reflect directly on the Horde. This is why we are on our second Horde Civil War in a row, which does nothing but cause strife among the Horde (and both sides of the player base).
A council probably wouldn’t work, I’ll agree to that. And I’ll agree that the Lore Team needs a fresh coat of paint (because a MoP retread is fairly pointless). I know it’s probably not a popular opinion, but the title of Warchief will simply continue to be a tool for the writers to abuse when they need to pull a bad guy out of a hat. I believe as long as we have a Warchief, we’ll continue to run down the Garrosh story line over and over and over.
Personally I think the title of Warchief needs to go not because the writers are less likely to abuse the political direction of the Horde by placing whichever character they feel best pushes said agenda into such a powerful position, but because it wouldn’t make sense in Universe for the Horde to maintain a political institution that has failed them so spectacularly so many times within its short history.
Alternatively, its powers need to be diminished or there needs to be another political body as a check.
Except that would make it the second time the new Horde has started swinging at the Alliance from out of nowhere. Granted the first was due to Twilight drudgery, it still makes it very, very hard to justify a team up, even if your very existence is on the line. At best it’d punt the Horde war to the sidelines until the current, bigger threat is dealt with.
Simply put, after Teldrassil there is zero reason for any Alliance to ally with the Horde ever again, because to do so would invite being stabbed in the back then summarily killed off the minute the opportunity presents itself. The only way I can see it being mended is if the Horde army comes to the Alliance’s aid during a pivotal moment, either saving them both with their arrival or throwing down their lives so that they might live.
This is all, of course, a pipe dream. Anduin will quell the others anger somehow, Sylvanas will get the blame, another War Crimes book comes out, yadda yadda yadda. I’d say you could find better endings to arcs on Fanfiction, but that’d be an insult to them for comparing it to Blizzard right now.
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I would like to see the Horde and Sylvanas part ways without Alliance intervention. That way the Horde is able to solve one of their issues and not feel indebted to the Alliance for helping them in a Horde civil manner…again. From their the Horde needs to reaffirm who they are and take steps so that another Garrosh and Sylvanas doesn’t happen.
I just really want them to stop with this Horde civil war crap.
Furthermore I would have Hamuul Runetotem seeking the aid of the Cenarion Circle in planting a new World Tree for the Night Elves. It would further show that the Horde is trying to make amends it what way they can and there’s the potential for Alliance internal drama over it being a genuine offer or a future trap in the making. Anduin citing it as a sign that peace is possible for the factions and Tyrande, understandably, not trusting it for example.
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Difficulty: The Alliance, in universe, should never, ever let the manhunt down until we have her (no longer mobile) corpse destroyed to an unresurrectable state, then the reamins sealed forever under Alliance, preferably Nelf, control. Even that will only be step one.
Every time the horde needs to find itself, they start with terrorist action unto the Alliance. It’s happened enough now that in order to make peace, several generations would have to pass without the horde losing control, and during those generations you’d have damaged, enraged allies trying to kill them the entire time. What’s worse, they’d be mostly justified in doing so.
I don’t blame the horde, I blame blizzard’s writers. They’ve cornered themselves and there’s no good way out. At most, I’m guessing maybe 40% of the playerbase will actually like the outcome of BFA on a story level.
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Oh man, this thread blew up… And no flame war? Lookit that.
I think we might have a different definition of what makes an A-list character. I don’t believe power level means nearly as much as development.
I can tell that the balance of power between the Alliance and Horde is important to you, while I can understand this point especially:
Given the Horde having little to no involvement in Argus (I don’t really like the Horde and I thought that was a bit strange.)
I just don’t think it is fair to ask for the death of a beloved character because “Our characters are not strong enough”. Not only is it a bit frustrating to have a character of such strength get bested by underpowered characters… Such as Malfurion getting one-shotted by Saurfang, and Tyrande failing to stop Nathanos in Darkshore. Those two examples are pretty humiliating. Furthermore on that, it would be punishing Alliance players for something Alliance players didn’t choose or necessarily want. Alliance players didn’t kill Vol’jin, or make Thrall retire. Not to mention these “God-tier” characters have been around since Vanilla, and the Horde has always been lacking in that department. I would argue the Horde is and always has been the underdog faction.
And as a night elf player, asking for Tyrande’s death hurts, considering we lost Teldrassil at the beginning of this expansion, which was the ENTIRE STORY of the nelves from Vanilla to Cata. It is quite literally the main focus of Night Elf story for more than half of WoW’s history, and it just went up in flames. Myself and many others have always wanted a more brutal and savage version of Tyrande, and we finally got it. So, sorry but I just can’t really get behind your perspective here.
I think it is also important to note that Vol’jinn is coming back, likely more powerful than he was before. In addition to that, the Horde has gained Sira, Delaryn, and quite possibly Derek Proudmoore.
I am hoping that the Night Warrior is a promise to Night Elf fans for a revival of the old Warcraft 3 nelves. Blizzard has pretty much trashed the whole aesthetic and culture of the Night Elves since Vanillla WoW, and my hope that the Night Warrior will revive the Matriarchal, Xenophobic, and homicidal night elves that I remember.
I want “Only the Goddess my Forbid me anything” Tyrande back. I want the “Every broken twig will be repaid with broken bones” nelves back. The Night Warrior is simply one step in that direction.
I think this is the main contention that exists between Alliance players and Horde players. The Horde is worried about this:
And that’s understandable. But here is the thing… The Alliance has lost and suffered at the hands of Sylvanas… What you want is akin to denying justice to the victims of a murderer’s crimes.
So, we are at an impasse, and I think this idea of “I want the Horde to solve the problem without Alliance help” seems to be a uniquely Horde thing to say. For instance, the Horde as similar claim to Moonglade and Nordrassil, Thrall got married at the World Tree, both places I, as a nelf player, see a uniquely night elven places. The Nightborne Joined the Horde, after Night Elven Druids aided in the tending of the Archendor (Night Elf druids can be found in Shal’aran), and Suramar being Tyrande’s birthplace and the birthplace of the Sisterhood of Elune…
… These are all things I felt belonged to the Night Elf story, that I was not only forced to share with the Horde, but had to gift it entirely to the Horde. Between that and Teldrassil, the Horde has successfully completely invalidated the entirety of the Night Elf storyline since Vanilla.
To me, I think it is unrealistic to expect any problem to be solved in WoW without the involvement of the other faction. And as we draw closer to the resolution of the faction conflict (Which the story devs said BfA is meant to resolve) cooperation between the Alliance and the Horde will become more common, not less.
So, I think what is both realistic and best for everyone is a resolution to the BfA story where either both factions lose or both factions win. The problem is that, right now, the Alliance is frothing at the mouth to get back at Sylvanas, and the Horde players either don’t want to go after Sylvanas at all, or do so reluctantly.
I personally like the idea of Delaryn replacing Sylvanas as the Dark Lady, but I think before that can happen, Delayrn needs to do something to get Horde players on board.
So, let me think of a new series of questions for this exercise.
Would you rather see the Faction conflict end or continue after BfA?
How would you like to see it end? How would you like to see it continue? What should the future hold for Alliance and Horde relations?
Forsaken fans, if Delaryn was to be a new Hero of the Forsaken, what would you like to see from her?
Horde Fans, given that Sylvanas has always been morally ambiguous, and contradictory to the more honor-bound orc/tauren culture in Kalimdor, do you think there could have been an outcome that didn’t pivot the two cultures against each other?
Night Elf fan, How many of you share my feelings about Tyrande’s role as Night Warrior, and the Night Elf story in General? Do you think there is any possible peaceful resolution between the Night Elves and the Horde that doesn’t result in Sylvanas’ death?
Alliance Fans, how would you feel about Horde intervention with the Alliance story, regarding a civil manner? Let’s say, hypothetically, Spy Master Shaw tried to overthrow Anduin, and Jaina or Genn reluctantly asks the Horde for help in rescuing Anduin from the Stockades?
Not meant to be a real story theory, just an example.
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That depends in the way how they ask.
There is a difference between beggin,asking for help, or just demanding help.
i think that out of the 3 options, i would rather be a “demand”
like. “if you don’t help us to stop shaw from releasing a void lord, you are going to be next” or something like that.
but yeah, i would say that jaina or genn begging for help at this point in the story would be pathetic. this isn’t the wc3 era anymore.
so if they do that i feel like any kind of sense of faction pride would be gone at that moment. hopefully that day never comes.
I won’t lie. Before BFA I never even glanced sideways at the power gaps that has always existed between the two factions. But this is a Faction War. Both factions need to be able to stand against the other on at least some believable level and when one side has a near monopoly on the “God-tier” characters it inherently forces there to be unsatisfying losses like:
While the Alliance is treated to ridiculous losses like these, the Horde has their face slammed into the dirt repeatedly as they are reminded of how crappy their victory was. Saurfang gives his ‘No Honor’ speech, Nathanos grumbles about whatever, Thalyssra claims that Jaina cannot be fought. Yadda yadda yadda. It’s not fun to be told the entire time that how you won is wrong and we should feel bad about it.
Droite often talks about how Hero-Centric the writing on this game is and I agree completely on the matter. Power greatly matters when the World Ending threats show up. Sylvanas is the only one we have until Thrall finishes his mid-life crisis or Vol’jin comes back permanently. (I’m still very unsure of what Blizz’s master plan is here, but with their current track record…)
As an aside if I could I would bundle Delaryn and Sira together and 1-Day ship them back. Trust me, we don’t want them.
You’ve already mentioned Argus so I believe you understand we’re scared of that becoming the normal if/when we lose Sylv.
Then surely you must understand how the Forsaken feel. They know it’s coming and all they can do is kick rocks and grumble. I did not take the subject lightly when I suggested Tyrande as that raid boss. As I said earlier:
But here we are.
I understand the Alliance has had zero effect on what has been happening to most of the Horde characters, that’s on the writers, but the current model of story telling cannot sustain itself. It’s fine that we’re the underdogs, but that should mean our victories we do gain are against all odds, they should be MASSIVE fist pump moments. Instead we get shamed.
So how do you want Tyrande, now being the Embodiment of Vengeance, to accept the status quo going forward? Why would she stop attacking the Horde after all we’ve done? I’d be happy to get the WC3 Kal’dorei back, but I worry that her story will become unsustainable itself on her current path.
To touch on some of your newer questions:
End and return to the Classic Cold War. Never be touched again with a 100 foot pole as a major plot point. The Horde and Alliance have more reason than ever to be wary of each other. They can be cordial for the most part, but there should always be tension and the occasional skirmish.
I think that first thing is first. Delaryn needs to accept herself as a Forsaken and we need to see it. We need to see her identify with the people she has become one with, become more Forsaken than Kal’dorei. (AND GET A REASON FOR IT!) She has potential, but her entrance was horribly botched.
I do. In fact going forward it needs to be a requirement. And I think we’re in a unique position to explore it at this point of the story as it is a mostly military distinction between the two. We currently have a scale with two extremes. Saurfang with his honor and Sylvanas with her trademarked pragmatism. I think compromise between the two will strengthen the Horde across the entire spectrum of problems it currently faces. The Forsaken need to learn that some things are worth holding onto, while the Horde needs to understand that sometimes you’re going to need to get those hands more dirty than perhaps you’d like.
Vol’jin called the Horde a family. That means they stick together, they listen to each other, and they work together to make the institution stronger as a whole.
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As awful as this sounds, reading through your post reminded me of why I’m opposed (but still susceptible) to the concept of a “Mostly” Blue EK, and “Mostly” Red Kalimdor (depending on execution); especially if we really do see some format of Alliance Undead and Horde Undead Elves.
Granted, it would take IMMENSE sacrifices on the sides of the NEs and Forsaken (and would REQUIRE Blizzard to do some serious finagling with a new seed from G’Hanir AND Naxxramas) … but despite ALL the downsides there are a few benefits to that plan (most notably, getting us out of eachother’s ways).
However, I’m definitely one who looks at things through a more functionalist lens (so I’m also coming at the topic from an unusual perspective). I also deeply dislike the Faction conflict. So, I’m still MOSTLY against the idea, but from time-to-time I am reminded why I don’t disregard it entirely.
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Honestly she needs a lot of face time, Sira’s virulent anger against Maiev feels familiar for the Forsaken, but Delaryn is far more subdued so Horde side is practically invisible.
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Here is the thing though, as I said, I don’t think power level is as important as development. Mostly because power levels are fickle. A character is as powerful as the narrative demands. Nathanos is a clear case-in-point of this.
Powerful characters is merely posturing and bragging rights, and thus it is easier to introduce more of them, rather than taking them away to fulfill some shallow sense faction strength.
Argus went as it did because Argus was more significant to Velen and the Draenei than anyone. That narrative choice was entirely based on character development rather than power level. So I don’t think you have to worry about Argus becoming the norm for the Horde due to a lack of powerful characters. What you should be afraid of is a lack of screen time and development for Horde characters. Which, for better or worse, the Horde has gotten a lot of screen time in BfA. Sylvanas and Saurfang are front and Center.
Sure, I liked Sylvanas a lot before BfA, as I mentioned before. However, I think we disagree here mainly due to this point.
Which you say you think there could have been a more cooperative outcome. I disagree… I feel like Sylvanas was always someone that we were going to be forced to confront eventually. Because, While BfA has taken her to the extreme, I don’t really think she is acting to far outside the scope of her original character.
I think there is a balance to be made here, and that union of Kaldorei and Forsaken values that can exist in Delaryn would be a good stepping stone to:
I think her last words to Sylvanas is telling. Delaryn was made to Mirrior Sylvanas in the Invasion of Quel’thalas, for War of Thorns. Where Sylvanas’ last words were spiteful and vicious, Delayrn was kind and hopeful. Sylvanas was clearly projecting her pain onto Delaryn, made clear by she explicitly retelling the story of her Kingdom’s fall. When Delaryn’s hope wasn’t shattered the same way Sylvanas’ was, she destroyed her only remaining victory condition in a fit of rage. Delaryn as the new Banshee Queen, but without the spite, without that resentment, ushering a very kind and sympathetic “I grieve for you” departure to the beloved character of Sylvanas is, in my mind, not only a very heartfelt way to end a character, but also has a narrative irony to it that is genius. And I think it can both serve to preserve the pragmatic culture of the Forsaken, while also bridging the gap between the clashing cultures in the Horde.
Not only that, but I think it being Delaryn is enough to cool the nerves of the angered Night Elves, but her participation in the Battle of Darkshore also leaves a bit of a sore spot. So it can keep tensions between the factions present, while also bringing this destructive war to a close.
Maybe its not what everyone wants, and I get the emotional attachment that lingers with Sylvanas. But given all that has happened, is the best solution really just to go back to how things were? Vol’jinn becoming Warcheif, Sylvanas and Saurfang making up? Everything going back as if nothing ever happened?
It would render the entire story null, and leave the Alliance at a complete loss.
I don’t think Tyrande would stop until vengeance is had… Especially with Maiev in her corner… We all know how persistent she is. I think the Delaryn story I listed above would be the best way to bring a mutually satisfying conclusion that that story, at which point, I would want the Night Elves to fall back into a Long Vigil of isolationism. To avoid anything like that from happening again. I also think this could build tension within the Alliance, and as a Horde player, the Alliance having civil problems might be a good change of pace.
I am not really a fan of the faction conflict, and I think Faction dominated continents would be a bad idea both mechanically and narratively. I am bias because I am a night elf fan, but really… it would take the wind out of my sails as a night elf fan. Having to RP a refugee in BfA has already done a number on me.