How can we remedy this, together?

Lore Story Forum
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This is in relation to a post made several months ago, which received nearly 170 likes on the General Forums, and a tremendous amount of support from the Night Elf players here on the forum community.

The original Thread can be found here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769617797?page=1

Now, I am essentially reposting this because I think it is something that shouldn’t be forgotten. It very elegantly and accurately describes the frustration a lot of Night Elf players have. Reading it alone was a small relief for me, because so often the concerns of night elf fans are mocked to the point of being a meme at this point.

Now, some of you who have seen me post before know that I don’t have the most forgiving eye when it comes to the Horde. However, I have come to realize something. While I stand by many of my opinions about the Horde, I feel I am often dismissive of the concerns of Horde players mainly because I too feel dismissed for my own concerns by the player base at large as well as the writers. So, I am here in a (perhaps hopeless) attempt to produce something wholesome on this forum. Something what will almost assuredly result in the typical flame war, but maybe not.

I want this thread to be a place for sharing story ideas, mindfully of all parties involved. My general understanding regarding the concerns of Horde Players is a mix of things (Broad generalizations ahead). On one side, you have “Thrall’s Horde” players who value the honorable and noble savage aspect of the Horde’s identity, and that this is being threatened by a string of villainized characters, and perhaps being overtaken by the more morally questionable culture that more closely follows the Forsaken.

In addition to that, the Horde has Forsaken characters who play Forsaken because they like to push the boundaries of Good and Evil, and play a character with more subjective views of morality without being a mustache twirling do-badder.

Now, on the Alliance side I can speak with a little bit more confidence, though I understand individuals all have their own perspectives and interpretations. What I can gather, the Alliance, on all fronts, feel victimized by the Horde, perhaps rightfully so. The Alliance wants justice and vindication, and everyone has their own reasons to want Sylvanas’ head on a pike, and all think they should be the ones to do it, or are Sylvanas fans and don’t want that to happen at all. That presents a problem narratively using the two-faction medium.

Assuming all listed concerns are valid. How to we satisfy all parties without sacrificing the integrity of their racial identity and characters? If a completely satisfying narrative is not possible, what compromises are reasonable? How could BfA end with a real resolution while mitigating the level of culture and faction idealistic suicide?

To give an example for the type of answers I am looking for.

Alliance Players, if Sylvanas had to be redeemed or justified in some way, how would it have to be done for you to accept? If the Horde as a whole was to redeem itself, how would it have to be done for you to accept?

Horde Players, unfortunately for you, much of the damage is already done. So the only question I can really ask you is, where does the Horde go from here? What would you like to see for the Horde? What would you like to see for the Alliance? Going forward, what would you want to see in regards to faction relations that would be both interesting and faire?

Sylvanas Loyalists and/or Forsaken Players, If Sylvanas absolutely must die, how could it be done in a way you accept? Who would you want to see as the new leader of the Forsaken, that would properly represent the racial identity for the Forsaken?

Night Elf players, again, much of the damage is already done, unfortunately. How could it be made better? What is the future of the Night Elves? What would like to see from the Night Elves that is true to their racial identity, that is both faire to them and all other players they might impact?

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I would say yes.

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As far as sylvanas goes I’m kind of in the middle. I don’t like how she’s been portrayed this xpac as a super villain. But I don’t want to lose any more A list characters horde side. I’d have rather seen malph die instead of the tree tbh, that would have given me some emotional investment as I remember him from wc3 and war of the ancients.

I have never played a night elf past like level 30 and not in the beginnings of the game so I don’t have much attachment to them in that way like the quoted poster was saying. They were the enemy. Doesn’t mean I want them all dead though.

As to the question of what I want to see from the horde…Vol’jin back in power. Take responsibility and kill whomever whispered in his ear. I’m biased towards trolls but he was the best choice for warchief after thrall and he is the one thing that actually pisses me off about the story. But eh, anymore I’m just along for the ride can’t get too emotionally charged when I’m forced to play villain to lion boy Jesus and his super friends.

On the plus side trolls haven’t been COMPLETELY villainized this xpac so yay.

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I can’t speak for the NE’s, all I can hope for is that Blizz is VERY careful about killing off more Horde representatives going forward. As horrific as Teldrassil is on a story lvl, there are few things that are more functionally destructive to a PC race than being stripped of strong representation. Blizz’s writing is increasingly centered around Hero characters, and if you’re lacking in Hero characters … well then your PC race is completely irrelevant. At the very least, NEs aren’t lacking here.

The Horde is already at huge disadvantages on this topic; with a Hero roster that pales in comparison (in power AND development) to the Alliances. So many of our big names are already dead or MIA (and the remainder are so underpowered or underdeveloped) that its genuinely hard not to fear that we’re likely not going to just be sentenced to Legion-esk expansion after Legion-esk expansion moving forward. The entire Horde just not contributing and being along for the ride…

Sylvie is likely a goner in this Expansion. Even if she doesn’t die, the chances are very high that she will cease to be a member of the Horde by its conclusion. Saurfang has an abnormal amount of Brox, Doomhammer, and Grom parallels right now; making his chances of death higher than I’m comfortable with… The NEs need to have some restitution to be sure, but there isn’t much left Blizz can take from the Horde before we’re simply a dead faction in the primary narratives…

The repeated Villain Bat has taken its toll on the Horde, and we’ve never been allowed a chance at recovery before it hits us again…

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The Horde defiantly needs some new blood. Sad we haven’t seen Thrall at all this expansion. At least is Blizzard is working on bringing characters like Rokhan and Rexxar to the front, but I think they need to start introduce entirely new charaters for the Horde now. I am very intrigued with Durotan’s Daughter leading the Mag’har and want to see more of her. I am even very tempted to hop on my Goblin and grind out Rep for Mag’har myself.

I think the introduction and development of new Horde characters is a necessary thing at this point, and I don’t even the most Horde-hating alliance player can argue that. I am hoping to see Delaryn being a cool character, even though I hate the concept of a Forsaken Kaldorei. We can’t really go back now, and my hope for her is that she finds some peace in her state. The last words she had with Sylvanas gave me so much pride, and I want her to keep that spirit. And I don’t think that will necessarily clash with the Forsaken either.

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Rokhan and Rexxar returning is nice, and I am happy that Gazlowe is actually fighting on our side fully now (those three are legends of the Horde). We’re really just missing Chen (and Cairne RIP) from the Old Crew if Thrall comes back. We even have new blood added; but they are all lacking in development pretty heavily (and they can’t get it if Blizz keeps on with this constant influx of conflict … Blizz, just ONE patch for some recovery time before Old God land PLEASE!)

As for the Undead NEs … now that they’re here, the question is what to do with them? I don’t doubt for a second that they will eventually turn on Sylvie (hell, I’m pretty convinced that even Nathanos will at some point), but where should they go from there? It think it largely depends on where the story goes from this point, and what happens to the NEs by BfA’s conclusion. While Factions will probably be broken down to some level … who knows outside of that?

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Personally I think if I were a night elf fan I would have preferred losing a main character or two instead of becoming canonically an endangered species and losing their homeland.

Sure, take Malfurion he’s boring these days anyway. Or take Tyrande, I’d be sad about it but she’s had a lot of story lately so I wouldn’t call it the worst waste of a character we’ve seen

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I think Risen Kaldorei present a unique circumstance for Blizz writers. These were Nelf characters that were taken from us in a brutal and emotional way, and made our enemy. I am going to avoid going on a tangent on how much I hate that, because it’s already in the past.

And sure, the argument can be made that Delaryn was made spesifically for War of Thorns and thus not fully a nelf character, but honestly? I remember doing War of Thorns with my guild and we all took to Delayrn very quickly. It might sound strange, but we all became very attached to her very quickly, and that might be because she was a very well-written nelf for the short time she was one. Her words to Sylvanas very strongly capture the spirit of the Night Elves, and tugged on my heart strings.

So, she still felt like one of our own when she was raised, and I hope Blizzard keeps that in mind when developing her character. She is a very diverse canvas to work with, and can provide this weird union between Nelves and Forsaken, who are philosophically and culturally the antithesis of each other.

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actually on second thought maybe I would just try to find a different race/faction with a similar aesthetic or lore to the night elves in a different story that they are the actual main characters of. Writers are less willing to dunk on a group of people who are supposed to be the main characters (usually).

I hear Avatar is getting a sequel?

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You’re a Darkspear. Even if they have the Echo Isles back finally, no race (not even the NEs) have been nearly as brutalized as your people have. The Amani; the Gurubashi; the Naga; the Kul Tirans; the Horde; and the moment you finally get a reward with Warchief Vol’jin, Blizz does nothing with him and kills him off by Trash-Mob (but hey, he’s back-ish right now). They don’t even have a racial leader still. :stuck_out_tongue:

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ouch… your words hurt me :frowning:

(because you are right dammit. I havent taken my own advice)

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To be honest, there is a potential story for the Risen NEs.

Despite having Elven factions of nearly every Primary Magic Domain (Arcane, Life, Light, Fel, Void) we still don’t really have one for Death. The idea that NEs (through a method they wouldn’t have wanted) now have the effective equivalent of their Immortality back (even if they need some maintenance) … is something you can work with conceptually. Functionally, they are now more capable of maintaining the Long Vigil than any other NE now; they don’t have to worry about aging.

Life and Death are meant to be two sides of the same coin; just like Elune herself (who clearly specializes in both domains). Not thrilled with how they came into creation, but that certainly doesn’t condemn them from decent storytelling once they break free of Sylvie’s “influence” (yeah, its will manipulation. If she’s willing to brainwash Derek, and experiment on Koltira, warping the wills of the NEs she revived (to make them more convenient) is not beyond her capabilities).

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I feel wary posting in an Aki thread. Very much so, but either way I’ll take a stab at conveying my feeling on the matter both as a Horde player, and as a person who has been very invested in Sylvanas as a character since WC3.

What I would like to see from the Horde is Saurfang and Sylvanas to reconcile their differing points of view of the Horde. How this could be done is tricky, but it would need a threat that called for both honor and pragmatism, forcing them to work together and find a middle ground. If needed the Alliance or NE could fill the role of the threat. Make Tyrande actually threatening to us while we’re at it. The Horde is a family, time we started acting like it and work together.

For Sylvanas…if she actually has to die I want it to meet some criteria:

  1. She dies protecting the Forsaken, if not the entirety of the Horde. She has always been a pinnacle of Forsaken culture and should remain as such, even as a martyr. (Else it’ll get weird when they tell us “Dark Lady Watch over you.”) I don’t exactly want her to die as Warchief, I want her to die as the Banshee Queen of the Forsaken, the Sylvanas I grew up with.
  2. The Alliance CANNOT have her killed and lose nothing. If the Horde is losing the only real A-lister we have it needs to come at a cost of an A-lister or two on the Alliance side. And though I hate to say it, since the NE have gone through so much already: It should be Tyrande. I cannot see a good path forward for her with the Night Warrior thing.

To meet those criteria I imagine we would preferably we have a Siege of Stormwind with the Horde invading until it goes wrong when the Alliance manage to counterpunch. The Alliance catches up and kills one of her Val’kyr (Removing her 1-Up, while leaving some for future development) Sylv is forced to make a choice between escaping by herself or saving the rest of the Forsaken, Nathanos included. She confronts the Alliance and is killed, giving her people time to fall back. The Horde raid would later confront a vengeful Tyrande unwilling to let them escape, desiring to end the Horde once and for all. Alongside Nathanos and the remaining Val’kyr the raid group battles Tyrande, giving us a chance to see how powerful she truly is while having Nathanos play an important role in the fight to see him rise to the occasion as the Forsaken’s new leader.

Of course in the aftermath we need a scenario or something for the NE so Malfurion or Shandris can take charge as the sole leader of the Kal’Dorei. NE heritage armor quest maybe? Tie in Nathanos dealing with his new position and his grief for Sylvanas as the Heritage for the Forsaken. Boom.

EDIT: Also what Droite said. The Horde cannot take many more character losses. Sylvanas may be our last A-list character…that bodes poorly for us.

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I think my issue with this idea is that Death and Undeath are not the same. I would argue that right now, Tyrande and the aspect of the Night Warrior is the Death Domain, where as Undeath is a perversion of it.

It’s that distinction that I can’t get around or that people seem to understand. Undeath is not the natural state of death, and I do not suspect there to be a large number of risen Kaldorei anyway, considering how difficult it seem to actually pull off. But for the ones that currently exist, there is defiantly a soul searching arch there that could go a number of different ways.

Oh man… I don’t think we are going to agree on much lol.

I am not sure Saurfang has it in him to work with Sylvanas again, but for the sake of this thread, let me see if I can think of a way to make it work…

… The problem is, Saurfang is actively helping the Alliance at this point. Andiun essentially set him loose on Sylvanas. So, the two rallying together would require some threat to justify it, and that is really only a temporary thing. However, with the threat of N’zoth looming, it’s possible…

I can get behind your Point 1. I wouldn’t mind a siege of Stormwind, I don’t really like that place. However, Tyrande’s death?.. I totally understand that the Horde can’t really afford to lose any a-list characters right now, but this kind of comes back to the whole:

And that’s twice as true for the Night Elves, who didn’t even care about Sylvanas until War of Thorns. I wouldn’t consider trading Tyrande for Sylvanas as fair in any respect, because as it stands, the Alliance has already lost and have yet to gain, especially in your scenario where we would be sacrificing Stormwind and Darnassus for Sylvanas.

I’ll give you Stormwind, but I am not willing to lose Darnassus, Sira, Stormwind and Tyrande for Sylvanas.

And before you say “Darnassus was paid for with Undercity” I don’t really agree. Because I would be totally down to see Sylvanas leading an effort to reclaim Tiristfall, like Tyrande in Darkshore, and Tyrande played zero role in Siege of Lordaeron to begin with.

I’ll give you this through… If an Alliance leader MUST die. I’ll give you Genn, if Tyrande gets the killing blow on Sylvanas. Because Genn already had his revenge, and Sylvanas would find her vindication with his death.

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As a weird tangent, I have this gut feeling that the Velonara side-story coming up is liable to somehow tie into the Risen NEs storyline. I don’t know how or why, but I just cannot shake that feeling…

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Well lads, we managed to keep this thread constructive and reasonable for about 3 hours. Good run.

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I was busy getting new floors or I would have replied earlier.

I just think “GD likes” is a hilarious and irrelevant thing to mention. If you had some perspective to share, why point to a rigged number. The “like” system on these forums is so bogus and easily gamed.

It detracts from your point.

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Sylvanas dying doesn’t truthfully mean that much to me anymore, even if I still absolutely despise the way Blizzard has gone with her. Just as long as her death doesn’t also signify the death of basically everything the Forsaken were since Vanilla.

As long as the Forsaken stay the option for the darker-flavored player race and don’t get neutered down to fit in with honor-Horde or Alliance ideals I’m alright with Sylvanas dying. Not really satisfied, seeing as I still think it’s a massive waste for Sylvanas and the Forsaken both, but just alright.

I’d prefer the leader to be a new character, and not Nathanos or Voss. And especially not Calia. Calia is anathema to everything that many people have ever liked in the Forsaken. Nathanos doesn’t really do anything besides lose, be annoying, or get the PC to do everything for him; and Voss doesn’t really fit given that her even being with the Forsaken right now is pretty much counter to everything about her character since MoP. I’d prefer some sort of Warlock, Mage, or Shadow Priest character to lead them myself.

My ideal outcome though is for Vol’jin to intervene in this inner conflict in the Horde after learning what entity manipulated events to set up for him naming Sylvanas as Warchief, and then him and Sylvanas agree to work together to confront this entity for its manipulation of the Horde so they go off and we don’t really see them until the expansion dealing with that entity (giving us a much needed break from Sylvanas-motivated plot threads), while the seat of Warchief is left to anyone other than Baine or Saurfang. Maybe Lor’themar, given that he’s pretty much the racial leader with the most seniority and also doesn’t lick Alliance boots every time he’s on screen, but I don’t really care who is Warchief as long as it isn’t someone who’d rather please the Alliance than work for the Horde.

As for this, I’d rather the factions just not interact much. I don’t really care much about the direction of the Horde after having all the fun in being interested in it sucked out by BfA. My only want for that is for us to not start being defined by needing to feel sorry for what we did to the Alliance.

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I can get behind a lot of that. Honestly, I would not be thrilled with a Sylvanas’ death if not for her overstepping in BFA. I liked her before that, I even defended her actions in Stormheim, not because I believed it was morally right, but because I understood what she was doing.

She had the potential to be something a lot more interesting, but unfortunately, with the more recent turn of events, I am kind of forced to rally behind my favorite race against her.

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I think I’m sort of unusual among night elf fans in that I’m not TOO miffed about Darkshore/Teldrassil (though the level of over-the-top-stupid-evil isn’t a great look for the Horde). Partially because, again, it takes most of the Horde army, losing 8 soldiers for every night elf combatant they take down, to deal with the newb sentinel brigade and Malfurion. Because the real army is gone. And it’s STILL a close thing, only pulled off by a random dues ex machina.

…Which ties into my actual objection. It seems like it takes a lot of random dues ex machinas or things that flat out shouldn’t work to deal with night elves when they need to take a fall for the story. Like, it can’t just be that the Horde has OVERWHELMING NUMBERS, they also need to pull a feint that somehow persuades the night elves to nearly empty Ashenvale of sentinels and oh, also a smuggler’s route that saves the day when the Horde is toast? Or the stupid magnataur McGuffin… While at the same time, once again, the ENTIRE HORDE ARMY has the Silverwing Sentinels surrounded on all sides and still can’t take them out.

I dunno. There’s just this weird thing where night elves are always described as really strong but only focused on when they’re losing. Usually in stupid ways. Which is aggravating.

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