Except i was talking with benedikt about and entirely different topic and never once did i claim i know whats best for the horde at large
But go ahead, keep changing the subject and moving the goalpost- keep proving my point
Then you walked into a thread without engaging with the OP, iconic.
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Remember what I said about ego Gharion?
Nature is amazing.
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Already did at
You even replied to me
You suggested nothing in that post, you literally only criticized Benedikt.
Yeah. And you responded to a statement I made relative to the topic at hand.
By the by, do you think you’re the first person I’ve had this conversation with? You’re not the first person this week, pal. You’ve already proven you hold the Forsaken to a standard that does not apply to another group doing the same ish. Because they’re not doing it at your team.
You’re either too dim or dishonest to argue this in good faith, and I don’t really want to waste my time.
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You asked that he should have engaged with you before replying to this thread.
He proved to you that he did so and now you moved the goal post.
This is like a documentary.
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Id hardly call someone dodging questions and moving goalposts a conversation tbh
Still waiting for any suggestions since you gave none when you walked into the thread.
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If i do you’ll just claim i dont have a vote in the matter because im an alliance main
But you know what? I guess its my fault for engaging with someone as dishonest as yourself.
He was clearly shell shocked we talked about IRL stereotypes that are connected to the in game fantasy races. Because there’s no politics in video games. Video games are all made by aliens with no knowledge of Earthly culture, history and events and therefore we’re clearly imagining things.
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Nah I’ll respond properly and fully depending on and proportional to how much effort you put into it recognizing Horde problems as outlined in the original post in the detailed and nuanced formulation of your proposed solution.
I’ll wait.
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I have a question that I don’t think was asked yet. I meant to ask it early on but it slipped my mind. I might have missed it, but I ran a search for “redeem” and “redemption” and haven’t seen anyone else ask:
For the premise of this thread, what exactly is horde redemption? There’s several solutions in the OP about building the horde up, and a couple about trying to eliminate the alliance’s relative spotlessness, but I don’t know how any of it means redemption, or what kind of definition I’m supposed to have in mind about it.
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I see you’re still mad that Horde players don’t want to cowtow to the Alliance.
You going to add anything useful or continue with your hypocrisy?
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Bruh. I answered all the questions above with Morghel already. Nothing the Forsaken do in Silverpine is that bad in the context of that questline. Neither is Hillsbrad.
Anytime someone says otherwise it is based in this bizarre interpretation of the story where the Forsaken are supposed to have omnipotent awareness of the whole Warcraft storyline.
You beg questions that have already been answered in this thread, can’t be answered because the player is provided no context for them (and thus the answer from you is the Forsaken are evil, how dare I demand nuance from the story and ever expect to win anything), or are answered in the context of the story you didn’t bother to play.
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NO! You must address the Alliance attempts to derail! So it is written in the Book of Whinge!
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The Book of Whinge must have taken you awhile to write lol. Glad y’all made your own thread to feel safe for those opinions.
I mean, I’m Catholic, and thus I function on the basis of Catholic ideas of sin and redemption, where Catholic sin is just copy pasta of Jewish sin, but “atonement” is different between the two in many regards.
For me, “sins” are “missing the mark”. All actions should be oriented to A Good End, and the means themselves must also be Good. In Catholic Ethics, “ends justify the means” is not permissible; it is in fact condemned in the Church.
All actions (means + ends) must be judged upon their intent (of the individual) and what actually happened consequentially.
The effect is then judged upon 4 possible outcomes
- The action hits the mark = not a sin
- Falls short = sin
- Shoots over = sin
- Hits the wrong mark = sin
And then there are sins which are individual and sins which are communal.
Jaina and the Silver Covenant purging the Blood Elves were, for example, a communal sin.
The Orcs that participated in the fel-blood fueled invasion (which excludes Thrall among others, as he was a newborn baby later raised in slavery) is a communal sin.
Grommash atoned for his sin via personal sacrifice. He was redeemed.
Thrall (Go’el, Hebrew for Redeemer in the context of slavery) recognized the communal sin of the Orcs and settled in Durotan for the purpose of atonement as a people.
Garrosh had individual sins and he is mow atoning for them in Revendreth.
However, the sins of the fathers do not carry to the children, but their effects do (original sin gets into this topic), but that’s more complex harmatology/soteriology that isn’t necessary here.
Mortal sins, which are damnable and fundamentally damage the soul, in this case what would send you to the Maw, have 3 requisites:
- The sin is done with full knowledge of its sinful nature.
- The sin is done of your own perfect volition.
- The sin done is grave matter, a subject that God has explicitly condemned. Examples are murder, unjust or stolen wages, oppression of the poor (or peoples subjugated otherwise), and sexual violence.
World of Warcraft hasn’t specified what damns you.
However if it were a Catholic world, Arthas would not go to the Maw. His will was influenced by Zovaal, and thus had no perfect will. As an example. He’d go to Revendreth. Mortal sin, but not all 3 criteria.
Garithos would. Grave matter, full knowledge, and perfect will.
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Your View of Catholic beliefs is very narrow.
Garithos however was killed before ever given the chance to ever redeem himself. He also had reasons to feel slighted as he lost his home so the elves were saved.
If Grom had been killed by thrall and Jaina instead of being purged of the demonic taint. He would be known as the betrayer would likely to have been thrown into the Maw.
Daelin however is a kind of different beast, his son was killed by Orcs and he didn’t believe the orcs could be trusted to change. He wasn’t a racist as much as he saw that the Horde would become a danger again and refused to believe they would change. Sadly he was proved right by the story. So does that make him an evil man? What would have happen if the Horde had instead arrested him and held him captive to show they had changed and become better themselves? Could they have changed his mind, Would he have repented we don’t know because he was killed.
Incorrect, and ignored 