OP wins the Christmas masochism award. Not sure I’ve seen a suggestion that more clearly states “I want to kill M+” than this one.
“Let’s just put entry level M0 in the top 5-10% range” is wild.
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He wants to kill dungeons in general. M+ is a much too narrow net to cast.
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his suggestion will prop up delve numbers. Good for delve MAU statistics.
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You guys think it would do anything to where you are. The same content that you are doing now will feel the same. The level of skill needed would feel the same. It Not about forcing anything. You guys hate it because you would have do content you are already doing…you can not just jump. Thats why we have this mess in the first place. Theres no GOOD stepping stone for the people to learn the mechs. We still have people that don’t what an interrupt does. I am trying to help the people who are stuck at 0-10 and smooth out the skill each level.
you guys can not disagree theres an gap to the people who actual knows to do stuff in m+ and who wants to tank and heal. The knowledge jumping into 7s are too high. This why we are losing people. Its not fun with learning with timer for most people.
This save the timer for the people who can push above that and thats most of the average m+ playerbase can so it wont effect the people who want to push.
Honesty this is the best way to fix the problems i have seen on here. Some of those people who hate walls haven’t seen the benefits like BC-wrath.
It forces people to go slow and not be so overwhelm
Yeah op has something
What you’ll find is the negative from Cata.
The early Cata heroics were notorious. Folks cried out about how easy Wrath heroics were, how gogogo they were. Shocking, considering the folks running Heroics were running 3 generations of gear higher than what they were designed for.
But, folks wanted “hard” Heorics. “You want 'em? You got 'em!” or “You think you do, but you don’t.”
Early Cata heroics were not received well.
And part and parcel to it was the dungeon finder. You hade players with zero investment in the group bailing at the first blink of trouble. Why not? They could be doing something else while they waited for the next group. Or, if you were a tank/healer, next group was 30s away. Hopefully the next one will be perfect, but it was certainly faster then fighting a tough Heroic.
You can’t have “hard” Heroics in this game any more. Look at the complaints now about difficulty, and just bump them down to the Heroics.
You want someone to learn the mechanics in a fight? Run 'em through it three times, and let them know the details after each wipe. Preferably with something more tactful than starting off with “hey idiot”.
But, no, no one wants to put up with that. “Not on MY watch!” Best way to learn a fight is to wipe. Best way to learn a lethal mechanic is to be hit by it. Then you KNOW. Then you KNOW to get out of the cone, away from the swirly, kick the spell cast. Cuz if you don’t, you get clobbered. But if it doesn’t happen to YOU, you don’t learn.
I can’t tell you how many M+ I ran in DF where I never encountered some dangerous mechanic and got caught by it even though I’d been in the dungeon several times before.
No patience, no motivation to teach, no tolerance for failure. This is why hard content is unpopular.
Before, when you were all stuck in town for 20m forming a group, then traveling (on foot) to some far off dungeon for the next 10+ minutes, by the time you got there, it was worth sticking around and discussing a fight if you wiped (or, even WORSE, BEFORE the fight!). Because you didn’t want to make that 30m of group finding an complete waste of time.
You’d think M+ would offer that, considering how long it takes to get a group as a DPS. But tanks don’t care. Healers don’t care. How often do you find that group Drama is focused on tanks and healers? Folks who readily and easily get groups. No time commitment to form the group? No commitment to keep the group and finish the content.
This is what makes tough content more difficult.
Harder base mechanical content and no timer sounds primo.
Bad take. A game should never be sweatlord hard.
That’s not even in the same region as the OP’s suggestion. The OP is suggesting that leveling characters be put into something on the same level as old +10 dungeons, halfway up the endgame rewards track. I’m not particularly opposed to the idea of heroics being a bit harder to at least pose some challenge, but that would straight-up kill dungeons.
thats not effect leveling just after max.
I don’t even understand the point of 3 dungeon difficulties any more. Normals are almost useless, I guess maybe some people level in them? But heroics are completely worthless. You get better gear almost anywhere else.
In the most accomplished region, Taiwan, the average M+ player (50th percentile) is hovering around having completed half +7 keys and half +6 keys. 28.1% have all keys completed at +10 or better. And these numbers drop to nearly all +6 average/23.5% +10 in Korea, nearly all +5 average/19.1% +10 in EU, and half +3 half +4 average/14.9% +10 in US/OCE. Where on earth did you get these numbers that anywhere near average M+ play is that high?
While your idea might do this once players get on the ladder, as we saw with the M+ squish in this season, moving the first rung of the ladder significantly higher makes it more difficult for players to jump on in the first place. For anyone who actually likes the M+ structure, you have removed this option of play except for people capable of succeeding in a current +13, and delayed players being able to participate in it until they are able to succeed in a +13.
And that’s to say nothing of the flawed thinking that all players will choose game modes they don’t like just for the reward. Sure, many will, hence the number of raiders that hop onto these forums complaining about the pressure they feel to run M+ in their off time. But many simply won’t regardless what carrot is at the end of that stick; for a player that enjoys M+ as a mode yet isn’t engaged by essentially a 5-man raid (as difficult timerless dungeon content would become), this just takes away M+ as a way for them to engage with the game as those players would simply not bother working up through the non-M+ modes to reach M+.
Your take isn’t hot, it’s absolutely delusional. Perhaps you genuinely believe average M+ play is in the 10 - 13 range, in which case I might be able to understand your suggestion. But since average player is lower than this even in the most accomplished region (and in the case of US/OCE, average play is less than half the target key range you quoted), your suggestion would absolutely ruin the game for a lot of people.
No it will not. I enjoy M+ as a gameplay concept, not just a vehicle for getting gear. While I’m certain if I dedicated more time to WoW I could reach +13s this season (and likely would need to reroll unless I find a consistent group), I am content to hang around the +10 range. Your suggestion literally removes the M+ gameplay option from me at this level. I can still get the gear, but not from a mode that even has a passing resemblance to M+.
It’s not just about the gear, which a lot of people don’t seem to realize. Many players are more likely to engage in a game mode they enjoy that gives them gear than one they hate but gives the same gear. A player who enjoys running dungeons that needs gear to reach the next level of their progression will likely choose the dungeon route if they are able. Creating an environment that heavily incentivizes them (or in your case, leaves them no other option) to do world content instead for the same gear is going to make the game less fun for those players.
Dude that data counts for whom done that level and above and toons/alts people don’t play. Of course the % is higher lower. You can’t just trust data thats adds *bobs 585 resto shaman that haven’t touched since TWW m+ started. The pool of active toons is smaller and the average keys is much higher now.
yes i did because as your data shows the bigger size of people are not having fun in keys. The whole timer Turn people away. Most of the 0-7s players are not gonna do that content where they feel too pressured to keep going. The way I put the dungeons is just the same now. The same skill needed. The first rung should be the hardest as not knowing what to do. Aka mega dungeons and M0s. Most people had trouble the first times. This wont be a bigger problem than you think the gear form delves would be enough. People always find an way to get better.
Most people are saying that it making it easier to get gear. Thats why people hates this idea not because removing the timer. As i said it won’t effect anything before hitting max. The jumps in difficulty would out weight the need to worry about making it too easy.
To that paragraph: M+ wasn’t made to be a catch all mode. It was there because the lower content was useless to the raider or pvper. The ones who need more time went into m+ got destroyed. It was design to on pair with raiding. The problem back than and really still today. The skill of the base player is higher. The ceiling needed to be push up aka now 20s to 10s. As the game got easier. 20s in legion was NOT easy as 20s in DF. This why 10s are as harder
now.
Respectfully you have this wrong. If m+ did not have a timer in the first place and just gotten harder like now. It wouldn’t change a thing. People want the challenge and the reward and some love an reward as number goes up aka io. So the challenge is apart of the reward. Removing it for them is allowing that player to enjoy the game without being stressed out and It would let people learn in hard content and probably do better than with a timer. They would bother to push themselves to do that content if they want it bad enough. The content would be the same just harder like now.
The bigger pop do not want a timer. Its not about the gear. Its always been the challenge for that person.
yea because dungeons before m+ is just m0s. Beside affixes m+ isnt a solid mode by itself. Its the same thing over and over. Once you hit your point theres nothing left. than you stop playing.
You are my reason to put m0s at 10s because you most likely be good enough to go higher without needing an consistent group. my M+ Is where you could start pushing yourself with the same skilled players and have an better time and be testing your knowledge.
People newer/lower dont want to be under stress where the right challenge for them is timed.
52% of US only timed a 2 because the rest don’t care for m+ in a whole or just the timer.
Most lower m+ players just quit before actual being challenge because of (multiple reasons) But its the level knowledge needed before hand and the timer pushing them where the content does not match the challenge
Timer does not equals challenge
If m+ had no timer and gear didnt matter, people will only focus on IO for an reward. but gamers are built for caring for higher gear and getting more powerful. You can say its not for the gear but its an vehicle for most people. Not the mode.
and for the people who does not care about gear most likely already pushing 15s+ because thats the challenge for them. Thats why i stopped at 10.
Tear apart my data all you want, at least I shared data. Unlike you making a claim that’s just “trust me, bro.” Do you have any data whatsoever to support your claim that the average player is running between +10 and +13 keys?
Not only does the data I shared not show this, it can’t show this. There is no definitive conclusion that can be shown why a player chose to run a certain key just by what keys were run. You don’t know why anyone did or didn’t reach the level they reached.
But more importantly, that isn’t even remotely related to the point I was driving at here. Anyone who is not capable or does not desire reaching the level of a +13 today will be completely excluded from keys entire from your system. They can access the gear in other game modes, but the actual M+ game mode will be unavailable to them.
What most people say is by definition a strawman unless I am also saying it, and I am not. This statement is completely useless as a response to me.
- Do you have any kind of a source to show the design intent behind M+, or am I just supposed to “trust you, bro” again?
- Even if that was the original design intent, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to remain stagnant as players get their hands on the system. Systems that last a while evolve, hence why we’re working on talent system number 3. M+ did become somewhat of a catch all mode in BFA in many ways still is today; and it’s by far the most popular grouped PvE mode in WoW. It seems criminal for Blizzard to ignore that.
- Yet again, this entire response does not even remotely address what the paragraph is saying. You are of the belief that players will happily jump from one rule set to another to progress through the gear ladder so long as the jumps in difficulty are smooth enough. But for players that like M+ some players aren’t going to be willing to work through every level of every dungeon in a timerless/affixless mode just to reach M+. So you’ve effectively removed M+ from those players, as well.
The entire nature of how players pull M+ would change if there weren’t a timer. There would be no reason to ever pull more than one pack at a time. There would be no reason not to wait 10-15 seconds for cooldowns. There would be no reason to use lust to combine multiple pulls together. There would be no reason to ever pull when the healer isn’t at full mana.
I’m not suggesting these differences would be bad for everyone, I’m sure many would like it. Just that it’s a fundamental difference to how the mode is played, and many wouldn’t like that as much. But to act like nothing would be different is frankly divorced from reality.
You cannot possibly know what percentage of players like the timer, dislike the timer, or are indifferent toward the timer. Do you genuinely think making completely unproven claims like this helps your argument in any way?
Moreover, this response is, yet again, just a deflection. I was responding to your claim that nothing would feel different if a timer was gone at the level I play. When yes, it would feel different.
And now you’re projecting your viewpoint onto mine. I enjoy refining strategies in M+ over the course of a season; the repetitiveness is a strength for me. That’s fine if you don’t feel that way, but you really need to stop trying to tell me what I enjoy and how I want to play.
But I would not enjoy the mode that lacks a timer and affixes to get the gear and IO in order to reach the level that I would get a timer and affixes. Right now, I can start in a +2 with the mode I enjoy most, and work my way up without fundamental changes to the structure of the mode. In your proposal, I don’t get the mode I enjoy until I’m pushing the highest levels I’ve ever pushed before.
Got a source for these claims? Or is it another “just trust me, bro” situation?
A timer is one factor of the challenge. More importantly, it’s a challenge that has many possible ways to tackle, unlike say a shield that needs to be bursted through before a mechanic kills the group.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I was giving my view point when discussing M+ not just being a vehicle for gear, not most players. But again, you can’t possibly know what most players want, so you aren’t helping your case by trying to paint me as being in the minority.
Taking a step back a second, do you honestly think you have made a convincing argument here? You happily cite data you never provide, and in many cases, can’t possibly have. More than once you completely deflected away from what I said to argue a completely different point. You scrutinize the data I did provide but fail to provide any source for anything at all. And then you try to speak for not only the majority of players, you try to tell me how I think as a way to trying to convince me I am wrong.
Perhaps the people in your echo chamber will think you did a bang up job demonstrating how I am wrong and the majority of players agree with you. But there was not a single paragraph you wrote that didn’t include at least one argumentative fallacy. Honestly I almost think I should be congratulating you here, especially since you were able to avoid ad hominem while accomplishing this feat.
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It’s about the gear, and the timer causes them to fail.
No the knowledge checks that are made is what makes them fail than their skill to do that thing. The timer is just there to annoy and push pressure on people to finish in a decent time for a CHANCE for a reward. Nothing more.
Honestly This would fix a lot of the m+ problem and save the timer for the great players who can handle the stress and play perfect.
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It wouldn’t, it’d just reduce difficulty. The issue is that people run M+ expecting endgame content with max-level rewards, but don’t want to be challenged to an appropriate level.
I know who didn’t play Cata.