Your point? Yeah, lots of stuff in this game has been incoherent and contradictory… but it’s still part of and in the game. Just because it inconveniences your interpretation of the state of Ashenvale doesn’t change that.
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The fact the mission table stuff is is incoherent and contradictory in several places makes drawing any conclusions from it dubious at best. It’s like Me’dan, where you ask ‘Is it canon? Ehhhhh…’
The entirety of Warcraft Lore is incoherent and contradictory throughout its’ history. I am also not drawing many conclusions from the war table missions other than they lend credence to Ashenvale being no where near conquered the way you and others have made it seem. The missions are there to give us the notion that it’s an active war zone, regardless of the contradictions therein.
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I am of the belief that Ashenvale is fully in Kaldorei control… Would like it if Blizz would confirm… But for now, I will speculate the treaty involved the exchange of Forsaken lands for Kaldorei lands.
Furthermore, the treaty would not be signed at all if hostilities did not cease… and Hostilities would not have if Ashenvale was still in Horde’s hands. But I suppose Tyrande didn’t sign it so… who the hell knows.
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So you think it’s natural for night elf civilians to defeat the entire Horde?
How do you explain the Horde’s continued existence, Akiyass? Why did the Night Elves not kill the Horde when they had their civilians and their army?
Also, you know, the rest of the Alliance?
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something deep inside me tells me that the writers decided to just give the zone to the Horde since the Horde has been fighting for it for a really long and now they finally got it so they won’t take it away from the Horde just like that…
and it’s a good way to further destroy the Night Elves, and those few remaining Night Elves don’t need such a big zone anyway.
Defeat? Not necessarily… It’s possible though.
I think it’s entirely realistic for a society of long-lived, hunter-gatherers to organize and engage in a capable defense of a densely forested land, rife with woodland allies such as dryads and faerie dragons, where the very trees themselves aid the defenders in the conflict.
I think attacking a place like that would be incredibly foolish. To me, it would just seem like a meat grinder that would drain more man power and more resources than it would ever be worth.
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Versus the entire horde? Including a race that was literally built to destroy trees and all plant matter?
I don’t think the Horde has anything like that.
But yes… I don’t think, realistically, the Horde and all it’s military experience, would even consider Ashenvale as a worthy warfront. It’s not about if they can win or not, it’s about if any possible victory would be worth the cost. I see Kaldorei territory as probably the worst place to wage a campaign against.
It would be something like Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, when Rome lost I think something like nine Legions just marching from one place to another. It’s said the Commander of those Legion literally went mad with loss and grief.
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Interestingly, World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 2 reveals that the origin of the orcish race is very similar to that of their sworn enemies, humans:
Much like humans, orcs are revealed to be descended from titan warrior races - the iron vrykul and the earth giants - constructed to fight the hostile natives of their respective planets. Furthermore, in both cases, the two races' immediate gigantic progenitors were originally hostile towards their smaller descendants, but were eventually overtaken by them.
The hostile natives were plant and tree monsters.
Well, they have. Repeatedly. Lumber is useful.
But we know that’s not how things have played out. We’ve had a little less than fifteen years of Warsong Gulch. Of fighting with elves to take elf land. And the Horde did take elf land. Kicked them out of Ashenvale until the Alliance player arrives to take it back.
So, this idea that night elves are just so much better combatants that even their civilians can defeat the entire Horde is wrong. The difference between Cataclysm and now is that Malfurion has taken to the field.
That doesn’t mean that’s what they are built to do… In fact, they are mutated to be far unlike the original intention.
Orcs are just big, strong bois… Big strong bois can still get shot in the eye from an unseen place. This doesn’t make them any better or worse at dealing with guerilla tactics.
Yeah, that’s because Blizzard is stupid, and make decisions for the sake of gameplay rather than what is likely. There are much easier ways to get lumber that doesn’t involve fighting a near sentient forest, and their immortal, near invisible allies for it. Trade and importing for instance… they have allies in wooded areas.
Not true, but also regardless… Blizzard makes decisions for gameplay reasons, not rooted in realism.
I didn’t say this, I said invading Kaldorei land would be more costly than beneficial. If Blizzard was in the habit of taking realism into account.
I didn’t make any comment on guerilla tactics. Just fighting plants – which night elves use. Treants are a nelf unit.
It’s true twice over. In the book just before Cataclysm came out, Garrosh wrecks Ashenvale until Varian Wrynn himself pushes Garrosh out for them.
When Varian leaves, the Horde reinvades Ashenvale and it’s up to the player to win back the zone.
You think it’s realistic for CIVILIANS to outfight an army SIX TIMES their numbers???
I must have my lines crossed, because I’ve been saying Malfurion is why the night elves did so well during the War of Thorns, and Tyrande is why the Night Elves broke the Horde in Darkshore after.
Do you disagree? I mean in the scenario you’re lead through umpteen orc squads that you’re told Tyrande soloed in her moon rage.
So, because there’s an Armistice, the Horde should get MORE land to protect themselves? Not exactly a rational point.
It’s a narrow pass that can be easily defended if they choose to do it. Honestly, it’s just poor placement of the gate and really all their own fault.
The Horde were SUPPOSE TO have less land. That’s the point. They’re invaders who settled an ENTIRE ZONE, granted to them by those they tried to invade. Frankly, The Alliance was wholly being overly generous to the Orcs.
Mathematically, the Horde didn’t even have that much less then the Alliance. Literally about 10% less. It’s not like the Alliance had an considerable more. And the Horde gained FAR more then the Alliance afterwards.
So, yes, the Horde were exceptionally greedy.
Ah yes, I forgot having less content and less land should be part of the faction fantasy. You folks won’t be happy until Horde players are unhappy.
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Big Strong Bois can cut wood real good, sure. Granted they don’t get shot in the eye first. Don’t really care what their origins are… and orc gets hit with a tree branch, they are going to have a hard time.
Not particularly… He enslaved some Magnataur, and had some Goblin smoke screens… and he still lost. I don’t think a congregation of humans and worgen would really have made that much difference.
That entire book is pretty full of it. Maiev’s entire story is basically never brought up, as if it didn’t happen at all. It’s just all around dumb so I don’t really think it holds much water in anything you are claiming.
I don’t this is evidence either. Considering the hero could very well be a Night Elf, and again, Blizzard makes decisions for the sake of gameplay, not story or realism… this is a moot point.
Eight times their number… and yes, it has happened before.
I am sure they help… but I am of the opinion that the Horde would have blitz through to Silverwing Refuge, then all die before they could escape the forest. due to simple bait and encircle tactics…
Their origins are actually being really sturdy rock guys who take hits well.
You might not think it, but they did. That’s how the book was written.
???
Every night elf settlement has been uprooted when the player arrives.
It could very well be a dwarf. Mine certainly was.
Oh? When?
They… help?
Tyrande solos entire units. Malfurion sinks orcs into the dirt like water and it’s just helping.
They’re morale breakers.
No but starting out as the Underdogs IS faction fantasy.
If both sides started out completely equals then it would make the Horde’s stuggles pretty meaningless.
But they are no longer big sturdy rock guys, and are instead, big, strong, fleshy bois who can still suffer from broken bones and internal bleeding.
I don’t consider the book canon because so many of it’s plot points are just swept under the rug, and it doesn’t make sense anyway.
Blizzard needed quest content.
Could be, but we don’t know. So the point is a non-argument.
Many times throughout history. Greek-Persian War, The Great Siege of Malta, Battle Of Okehazama, Siege Of Vienna… Many times.
That is what I call help.
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My ideal battle in Ashenvale would be one showing off these competing themes.
Preferably, for tying it in to the Azerite competition, it would be a battle where the Horde is trying to blitz through the forest and destroy Teldrassil’s port to deny it to the Alliance like the Alliance is trying to deny Silithus to the Horde, while the Alliance/night elf reserve guard and civilians are trying to survive and sabotage or slow the Horde long enough for the army to return.
The night elves would have forest allies on their side, and their tactics would be to make the terrain difficult for a single large troop to march through, ambush smaller units whenever they have to split up, use roots or physical damage to sabotage siege machinery or supply wagons, and then disappear/flee back into the forest.
WQs could involve basic kill quests in an ambush location, sabotaging siege engines, helping dryads poison supply wagons, fetching more large stones for the ancients (tree ones) to throw, collecting cuttings/seeds from fallen treants/ancients to regrow them once the Horde has left, and so on.
The Horde would be using goblin shredders, flamethrowers, and Forsaken blightspewers to clear a path or destroy good ambush spots, but they would have both a time crunch to get to Teldrassil before the main night elf army and concerns that if they deforest too much too quickly, they may attract the ire of the Ancients who otherwise won’t react to a ‘small’ battle. Their warriors, meanwhile, would make short work of the few ambushers they manage to pin down, and take on the treants and ancients.
WQs could involve basic kill quests in an ambush zone, repairing/freeing demolishers, collecting supplies from an ambushed supply wagon, melting/burning a set number of trees, piloting a shredder, and so on.
As for the Burning, I’d have preferred for only a few experimental Azerite demolishers to survive the long slog north, and they successfully burn Teldrassil’s port… and either the Azerite weapons, the Azerite stockpiles in the port, or a combination of the two (with maybe a hint that Sylvanas knew this would happen, if this story is still following her villain angle) causes the whole tree to burn. But in this case, it’s not packed chock-full of civilians - it’s enough of a tragedy without that piled on.
If they’re still going for the ‘Sylvanas is trying to maximize casualties on both sides’, I would make a point of having Horde NPCs react to how many of their number were lost on the return journey through Ashenvale, too. Add some NPCs debating the Sylvanas’ leadership, how peace was impossible anyway, the ethics of the Burning, the knowledge that the Alliance is not in a mood to accept surrender right after the Burning, and some comment about how they got some lumber out of the campaign even if most was blight-rotted or burnt.
I’d hope to emphasize the escape and regrowth aspect on the night elf side, and the victory in a hard-fought battle aspect on the Horde side.
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IF Blizzard actually thought things through, they might have seen the fastest and most direct way for the Horde to achieve this would be a Naval maneuver around the North side of Kalmidor… Imagine it the “War of Thorns” was Naval Scenario. That would be cool, unique and make sense.
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