Oh blegh. I missed you narrowing the scope to just Teldrassil.
This was the original scope I framed, quoting nobody else. I am tired and let you pull the rug out from under me. I was never specifically referring to Teldrassil. I see now you were.
And this is legit my bad. I mistook which post of mine you were replying to. I actually take back what I said in reply. I agree with you.
I ainât pulling the rug out from under you, itâs just of those points the first one is smart tactics, the second isâŚdebatable depending on how you take defenders of Darrowshire and the personal randomization effect of undeath which is, after all, random. So really the strictly evil thing is burning children alive which, basically no one is advocating for.
No worries ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Here is the way I see it.
In Cata, the NEâs sent soldiers to Silverpine because the Forsakenâs allies invaded us.
In BFA, we were invaded because one of our allies attacked Sylvanas in Stormheim.
What I am saying is, I think we were justified in warring with the Forsaken in Cata, but that the Horde was not justified in invading us in BFA, because of these differences in degree. Our aggression against the Forsaken in Cata was much smaller then their aggression against us in BFA, and the Hordeâs provocation in BFA was smaller then our provocation in Cata. I think there should be proportionality between aggression, and reaction. You might not agree, that is just how I see it.
Hoo ⌠boy did this thread devolve into something unrecognizable. Why was Stormheim brought up? The level that that event impacted the current war is hotly debated, but Iâm not so sure its relevant for this topic? Why was Teldrassil brought up? Another hotly discussed topic (and certainly one more related to this warfront), but still ⌠its not the 8.1 Darkshore content.
Darkshore is being burned, blighted, and NEs are getting revived. All of these due to the introduction to the two most amoral (and environmentally destructive) races amongst the Horde (the Forsaken and the Bilgewater). Neither race has any particular attachment to the land beyond the need for resources, so their actions seem rather wasteful unless you consider that:
In short ⌠regardless of whether what you think about the moral implications of what the Forsaken and Bilgewater are doing to Darkshore, its hard to argue that they donât have incentives ⌠nor that they arenât using effective tactics. They are fighting NEs in a way that most hurts the NEs (tactically and emotionally). Theyâre in it to win it seems, they arenât about to play fair.
I donât really see a problem with raising, because to be frank I just stabbed you in the neck. I have already, personally, violated your rights through MURDER and at this point I might as well ask you if you want a second chance at life. Now we could have an interesting philosophical debate about how much free will is your free will considering how random the raising process can be with traits and have a ship of Thesus discussion about the morality of THAT, but I donât really see anything wrong with pulling you out of the dirt to bolster our numbers.
The Forsaken will wither away and die without a growing population, we have too many enemies and thereâs safety in numbers, hence we may as well take advantage of the opportunity while itâs there. Itâs not like the other factions canât, or donât do worse things with corpses.
While I appreciate you trying to not put words in my mouth, donât misrepresent my arguments. Literally EVERYTHING, including the invasion in Cata, is a product of that choice to reject those emissaries. Your âretaliationâ for a third party that wasnât even part of the Alliance wouldnât of even happened if not for that. Your reasons are bunk because at best at the time you could argue maybe someone heard about Garithos, but he never even came up in any discussion about diplomacy.
Then, WHOOPSIE! the group of people you relentlessly persecuted developed a WMD and started waging a war to break the entire back of your organization. I ainât too sympathetic.
The NEâs sent soldiers to Silverpine because they felt responsible for the Worgen curse. This means that they simply chose to back a third party against the Forsaken. This is also the first of any major conflicts between the Forsaken and the Nelves.
We donât actually know that the Alliance rejected your ambassadors. Sylvanas âsuspectsâ they made into Stormwind proper, but she is as paranoid as she is evil. I donât put much stock in her suspicions.
Look, my argument is that the invasion of NE land during the War of Thorns was unjustified and evil, and that, therefore, any further desecration of our land by the Horde is also unjustified and evil. You might be able to make a causal link between the ambassadorâs, and the War of Thorns. But there is no moral link. The fact that the humans of Stormwind might have rejected you does not justify the Hordeâs invasion during the War of Thorns.
Anduin states they were rejected, he just doesnât take responsibility for their murders. He even makes a mental note that he was wrong for that rejection.
If you say might, but it IS, thatâs a much different discussion. Plus providing armor, weapons, supplies, and troops for a purge squad is not a âcasual linkâ. Thatâs a pretty strong link youâre a threat in my book, and iâm not going to say we shouldnât invade your lands when youâre literally backing troops to invade OURS.
Quick note: When talking about matter of diplomacy, Anduin explicitly stated that they viewed the Forsaken as Scourge. So, while we donât know if those specific ambassadors made it to SW, we do know that the Forsaken were treated as Scourge by SW.
I suggest some RPers name every seed and limb and root the Goblins burn and the Forsaken Blight.
It would make the Genocide debates more varietal.
My apologies, I donât read WoW books (though maybe I should, if I am going to participate here.)
The Night elves did not try to purge your race. If you are still talking about Pyrewood, we were fighting over it to help the GLF retake Gilneas, land that most assuredly does not belong to you. Killing surrendering soldiers is a war crime, but it is not genocide. Calling the 7th Legion âpurge squadsâ is disingenuous.
Calling the 7th Legion âpurge squadsâ is disingenuous.
Youâre a little behind the curve, arenât you?
I just wish more brought up that during this time period, Dalaran didnât know zombies could talk and actually did grant asylum to Forsaken asking for it. The Dalaran officials and Forsaken in question were assassinated by the Horde.
This manages to fall out of the broader discussion on Forsaken acceptance a lot. I feel its a shame. We lament the loss of Forsaken nuanced storytelling but eschew the nuance part a lot. I blame Blizzard for not bringing it up enough. Dang broad strokes storytellers.
Iâm new to posting here, yes.
I may be mistaken, but isnât that quest considered an error and not canon?
And on the topic of this threadâŚjust why. How far do they intend to go with this villainization before they attempt to subvert it? Do they even plan to subvert it?
No, itâs not, because as we see in visions given to Sylvanas and reinforced by the attitudes of Stormwinds people through those books you didnât read? the Alliance actively wanted to wipe out the Forsaken, it even went so far as Sylvanas receiving a vision of the future where Varian conquers Undercity and everyone within it was killed. Gilneas and Andorhal are the major fronts from which this extinction takes place, I can understand defending the former but once you crossed over into Silverpine you were actively invading another country.
And judging by the behavior of those people after crossing the border, and judging by Varians seeming insistence on turning the Plaguelands into farmland by transplanting people from Westfall, all signs point to him planning an invasion and destruction of Undercity. Is attacking Gilneas wrong? Absolutely, in fact the Night Elves do have justification for its defense since Garrosh was forcing the Forsaken to attack it to make a Horde port for Kali, but that was a land grab. The defense against that land grab was being used to justify another land grab and follow up genocide.
I apologize if I came off hostile, I understand how difficult it is to keep up with the books(Frankly I wish there was a free version we all could read, we pay 15 bucks a month for the game as is.) but there is a LOOOOOOT of background information to this discussion that youâre missing.
An error? Iâve only ever heard of the Cata quests in Silverpine regarded as that. Why would a regular old Vanilla quest be stricken? It contradicts nothing.
Lately, I wonder. Itâs pretty clear that 8.1 is, for lack of a better term, the âHorde Sucksâ patch. Consider that weâve been gnawing on every new build for close to two months now - but this has ALL been the same patch. If they established that the theme is indeed âHorde Sucksâ then everything they do in this patch is going to be in furtherance of that theme.
Now, I think that having such a monotone story direction is an absolutely terrible idea because it robs the story of a chance to have any depth or nuance, but Blizzard has never been above beating the players over the head with its chosen theme du jour.
Sheâs talking about the people seeking refuge in Dalaran after stealing from the Undercity vault, itâs worth noting those people were killed because of what they had stolen from Undercity, a small collection of bloodstones, not because of their asylum of which other undead had left for places like the Argent Crusade.