ehhh. . . not really?
In a technical sense they may have been but the Alliance was itself perfectly willing to contemplate hostilities elsewhere. That’s why the night elf army was sailing down to Silithus in the first place, before the “war” had started, to confront and stop the Horde army they thought was going to go down there. That Sylvanas had the greater strategic vision for the conflict they both saw and countenanced doesn’t mean she or the Horde have all the responsibility for there being a conflict.
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There must be some babies with lollipops you can steal, or a new trinket “Crate of Puppies to Kick”.
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Babies have surprisingly strong grips. And if I’m hearing a lot of night elven posters correctly, their race is apparently much more of a bunch of pushovers than some babies.
Greymane did not threaten your home or livelihood. He wanted revenge against Sylvanas personally. He wanted to hurt her as badly as she had hurt him. He wasn’t going to destroy Orgimmar or anything. Not saying that makes it OK, I’m just saying that there is a lack of proportionality here. Greymane struck Sylvanas’s military forces half a world away from Undercity. You guys invaded our land and destroyed our home. Those two things are not balanced. Even without the Burning, they still would not be balanced. The War of Thorns was a massive escalation of hostilities between our factions, no matter how you slice it. That being said, I will concede that my initial use of the word unprovoked may have been inaccurate. I threw it in as a descriptive word, without much consideration. So I apologize for causing any confusion. I’m not trying to whitewash the Alliance or anything.
I have to be honest, I find it a little absurd that you just said we threatened things that are sacred to you. I know it was an innocent comment. But, we the Night Elves, have never launched an invasion into your land. You have done so to us twice (three times if you count WC3). I am sorry if we are a “border hazard” but we were here first. We have every right to continue to inhabit the land upon which we have lived for millennia. I’m not going to pretend to have a categorical knowledge of every misdeed the modern Alliance has perpetrated against the modern Horde. I will only say, having leveled a Horde character through Legion, I never saw the Alliance do anything as bad as the invasion of Gilneas, or the Burning of Teldrassil.
My understanding is the night elves sent their forces to Silithus because we thought the Horde army that invaded us was actually going to Silithus. It would have been a reaction to the Horde, not an act of aggression. That was the whole point of Sylvanas’ and Saurfangs’s gambit- to trick the NE’s into leaving their home unprotected. If I’m wrong, I will happily stand corrected.
I’m sorry if I sound accusatory, or angry. I’m not angry at anyone here. Its just easier for me to write this way.
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I like that the attack wouldn’t have succeeded if the Alliance actually HAD considered themselves to be at peace.
Alliance: “We’re at peace and we love peace and we hold that to the highest goal.”
Sylvanas: “Let’s test that…”
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That is an extreme misrepresentation of Genn Greymane, Genn himself has admitted that he didn’t rationalize the Forsaken as actual sapient people before the end of BtS, as many other members of the Alliance also felt. This wasn’t just about hurting Sylvanas, it was also about hurting US, and he felt that through his pain and internal anguish he could rationalize attacking the Forsaken easier then if he actually humanized them in any capacity.
That is your ally, that is the person you are supporting, you can think it’s absurd that I don’t view you as innocent but I haven’t since Cata. Kaldorei troops took part in purge squads during the attack on Pyrewood Village that had explicit orders to take no prisoners. The Alliance does not view us as people deserving of life even when we surrender, you, including the Night Elves, are a threat to our existence and always have been.
The best justification i’v heard for this is that Varian made the Gilneans a member state after the fact and as a consequence was acting in their defense. But let’s not kid ourselves, Varian always had designs on Lordaeron, he was infatuated with it since he was a child and he viewed murdering us a mercy killing to ‘free our souls’ so that we would oh so thankfully smile down upon him for his benevolence after we were dead.
What did Lordaeron ever do to you? We barely even know who you are, the most we’ve come into contact with is our agents getting into schuffles with yours with the Hordes overseas. Now you’re backing the destruction of our homes because we happened to attack a third party of individuals who were cursed by Elune and Goldrinn. The invasion of Gilneas in itself is why we should attack you, because you will use anything as an excuse to wipe us out.
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I meant that Genn did not threaten the Horde as a whole. I do see why you would see him as a threat to the Forsaken, however. That being said, I don’t think I misrepresented anything. Genn was very clear about what he was doing. In his words, he wanted to take Sylvanas’ future, because she had taken his son. Maybe he wasn’t being entirely forthcoming during the cinematic, but I took him at his word when I watched it.
I’m not trying to attack your race, or to delegitimize your grievances. That being said, I looked up Pyrewood Village. Best that I can tell, 7th Legion soldiers, including Night Elves, killed Forsaken soldiers who tried to surrender. That is bad, definitely. But as Sylvanas knows, war can be messy, and bad things often happen. As far as atrocities go, it pales in comparison to what the Forsaken did to Gilneas.
You were part of the Horde, the same nation that invaded Ashenvale. When that happened, our nations came to be at war. We fought with our allies against our shared enemies. Nothing that happened during that war justifies your invasion during the War of Thorns. I’m sorry, but that is just the way I see it. The Night Elves never did anything to threaten the existence of your race. The Forsaken invaded Gilneas literally without provocation (I mean that one), and I will not apologize for the Alliance defending the Gilnean people. Regardless of when they joined the Alliance, what happened to Gilneas was wrong, and the Alliance fought against an already hostile faction to make it right.
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She’s the Night Elven flightmaster for the Cenarion Circle in Nighthaven. If you try to use her as a Horde druid, she refuses, telling you “You’re not a real druid!”.
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That is fair, but at the same time you have to recognize the disconnect between what you’re saying, and how the Forsaken feel about the war. In fact you could say the disconnect is why the Horde is so extreme right now, before this the Horde wasn’t fighting a war of extinction.
Genn might of been doing that to take Windrunners future, but there’s no way he coudn’t of known he was taking OUR future. In the same way that you view us as a threat for being part of the Horde, that’s how I view you in the Alliance, the only difference is that until now the invasion of Lordaeron failed. If Windrunners vision is true, and given Varians actions there’s no reason to believe it isn’t, you would of wiped us down to the man and burned our homes for good measure before building an empire on our graves.
Frankly, the decision to defend Gilneas has nothing to do with the Alliances wants until the Gilneans joined up with them. Varian himself states the Gilneans were pathetic cowards who shouldn’t be in the Alliance, this wasn’t about defense, it was about conquest. Stormwind was out of resources, their economy was broke, and they were going to use this war to justify paving over our land for their farms and so Varian could have his pie in the sky human kingdom.
And say what you want about Sylvanas and the Forsaken, but by the time we hit Cities in Dust it’s clear the GLF is defeated. At least we let them leave rather then pump arrows into their retreating backs.
We wouldn’t even be in this situation if the Alliance accepted our ambassadors rather then reject and kill them, all this bloodshed could of been avoided if for a moment you just stayed your hand. But we don’t exist in that timeline, right here, right now, the Horde is being led by a monster fighting on the logic that the ALLIANCE has ingrained into her psyche. That we cannot trust you, that you would kill every one of us and take our lands, take our homes, and take our loved ones because we are different from you.
And I ain’t gonna let you do that.
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I think you just logicked yourself to an understanding ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
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I really want to ask why it wasn’t okay though. Why was it okay for Sylvanas to have her revenge against Arthas and not okay for Genn to have his revenge against his Arthas? I’m told its “”"“pragmatic”""" to develop a plague and make enemies with over half the world as you do so, kill your own people, experiment on and melt innocents, etc to have one’s revenge against Arthas. I’m told its “”"“reckless”""" to seize an opportunity as it presents itself and go for your revenge against your Arthas stand in.
The hoops faction-based perspectivizing has us all jumping through utterly astounds me at times.
Did you know we have actual people in this very thread, arguing that turning the land fallow and bereft of life, twisting souls into mockeries of their former selves as you damn them to hell, and burning thousands of children alive isn’t so much evil as it is just good military strategy?
For real. This is wild.
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Most good military strategies are actually quite evil, I don’t know if you know this, probably do. But given how ivory tower some people are, there’s a fair chance you don’t.
Ivory tower? I’m saying killing babies is bad you silly little zombie. That’s a pretty dang ground level assertion where I’m from.
And yeah. Military actions lead to evils being committed. That doesn’t stop them from being evils! You really want to mistake me as someone who 1. Doesn’t want what I deem evil in my stories and 2. Someone who, in taking issue with another using military actions as refutation of degrees of evil, is somehow unaware that bad things happen.
I am neither. What I am, again, is amazed at people lit’rally saying burning children alive isn’t evil because its a military action they saw one time on TV. As though that is a refutation of anything stated.
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It’s okay if you are okay with Sylvanas.
It’s not okay if you are not okay with Sylvanas.
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OK, I don’t know how you feel about this, so I’ll try not to put words in your mouth. That being said: I agree that the Forsaken that currently exist have a right to exist, and even to continue to occupy Lordaeron. However, in my opinion, Sylvanas has no right to raise anyone else into undeath. I’m not saying that your existence is evil, but I am saying that continuing to raise more undead is evil. I certainly wouldn’t appreciate being brought back as a zombie, and given the choice of either continuing to live as an undead, or to be killed all over again. Beyond that, the potential of Sylvanas having an unexhasutible army of undead at her fingertips is, concerning to say the least, from our perspective. You might even call it threatening. That might be depriving your people of their future, but I don’t really think what Genn did, in that moment, was anything other then heroic. his initial attack, maybe not so much.
Wow, pre-vanilla events. We’re going way back to search for moral justification here. No, that, in fact, does not make the War of Thorns OK. Just because Stormwind might have killed your ambassadors 10 years ago does not give you the right to invade us. You talk about how we will never trust you. You haven’t exactly acted in a trustworthy way. Even Garrosh Hellscream, Orc Hitler, was taken aback by Sylvanas’ Lich Queen act, and even he didn’t want to deploy the Blight in Gilneas. I’m sorry if we don’t trust you. but we have our reasons.
I recognized that as I was typing, but I’m typing too much already. Suffice it to say, I still don’t think Genn’s actions in Stormheim were at the same level as the invasion of either Ashenvale or Gilneas, and therefore did not deserve the same level of retaliation. Beyond that, what we did to the Forsaken in Silverpine is no where near as bad as what they just did to us during the War of Thorns. It’s a matter of degree.
Talking in-universe or out? Because I’m not really role playing right now. I am saying starting a war so you can murder babies by burning them all alive is bad. That this is a controversial hill to stand on here actually staggers me a bit.
Which is weird to me because I might of missed a post, but I don’t actually notice anyone in here saying the Burning of Darnassus isn’t evil?
I see a lot of people saying you should burn DARKSHORE though.
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Here u go. One of them.
He’s talking about Darkshore, the person you just quoted is literally talking about destroying the foliage in Darkshore.
You silly billy.
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I’d agree with you but that seems to be a wholly other point.
I assumed this was out of universe:
“I really want to ask why it wasn’t okay though. Why was it okay for Sylvanas to have her revenge against Arthas and not okay for Genn to have his revenge against his Arthas ? I’m told its “””“pragmatic”""" to develop a plague and make enemies with over half the world as you do so, kill your own people, experiment on and melt innocents, etc to have one’s revenge against Arthas. I’m told its “”"“reckless”""" to seize an opportunity as it presents itself and go for your revenge against your Arthas stand in."
It seemed to me that you are asking someone who decided that the action is not okay why it would be okay for Sylvanas. But I don’t think that Nelf poster was defending Sylvanas. It seemed to me tha tAedren was saying it simply wasn’t okay.