Even thought I main Horde, I bounce between the two factions (done Loremaster on my Alliance alt through Legion), and you are right that the Alliance traditionally loses more. That being said, yeah … we may be facing a major shift in world with this expansion. What form that takes, even I don’t know … but it will be heavily felt on both sides (and my guess is primarily in the negative).
Emphasis on the Kinda. Especially since right afterward, Anduin tells us that it was actually a strategic failure since we’ve driven the Zandalari and Horde even closer together. He and Jaina then mope about us being as bad as Sylvanas if we were to push the advantage to end the war while the Horde is in mourning.
Even when we win, we still have to feel like we lost.
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LOL, at least you get to feel like the “Good Guys”, even if you’re forced to do slightly daft things in the process. We Horde are stuck on the Sylvie train at the moment, and its a wild ride… Beyond that, I main this little Gob (and I’d never switch), but I’m stuck with the Harbinger of my People’s Destruction as my racial leader; because Blizz wants a joke character on the Horde. They won’t even bother developing a replacement for Wix (like Sassy or Mida, characters who have the classic Goblin Greed and intellect, but actually care about their people as well) … which means we’re stuck with him indefinitely.
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TBH, I don’t feel like a Good Guy. I feel like a guy who constantly has to fight the Horde, just for my own faction leaders to lecture me about how I should want peace with the Horde and if I actually DO want to fight them, then I’m just as bad as female elf Arthas.
Not that you guys have it better. I fully recognize that both playerbases are up $hit creek without a paddle this expansion. I’m just sick to death of the schizophrenic narrative Alliance-side.
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They’re really intent on making the Horde a Legionesque threat, aren’t they…
Alliance wins: Push the Horde back, fix up the forest and nature all nice and pretty.
Horde wins: KILL ALL THE TREES I HATE OXYGEN SO MUCH AAAAAAAAAA!!!
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I don’t get why everyone is acting like this makes the Horde look super evil: it makes them look smart for a change.
Problem: We have an enemy that hides in the shadows, lurks in the treetops, and uses roots to slowly strangle our troops to death.
Solution: Just get rid of the fricking trees!
If you’re adversary has an advantage over your, removing that advantage makes a ton of sense. And since the Horde has Ashenvale Forest at their backs, they don’t need the lumber from Darkshore, so burning/blighting it not only removes the Night Elves advantage but also creates an additional hazard that would work in the Horde’s favor.
It’s a tactically sound approach to deal with an enemy that uses nature as their strength.
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You might’ve responded before I edited, but I was talking specifically about the Blighting and how it affects the rest of the Horde until an unforeseeable future.
Fire is just as effective, probably even more effective than Blight against a forest, if you add Fire Mages, Warlocks and Shamans, but the long-term effects on the land will be far less and far more manageable. Blighting under these circumstances is just an another example of Sylvanas responding excessively to a problem. Tactically it’s sound, but strategically It could ultimately turn the Night Elves away and back towards the rest of the Alliance if all their land suddenly lose all its value. Blighting the land can also force the Night Elves to adopt scorched torch tactics against Horde military camps if there’s nothing for them to save and they are still feeling vengeful. We want them slow and apprehensive or desperate and rash. We don’t want an angry but focused Night Elven army of John Wicks.
As for that dialogue, it doesn’t imply that we’re blighting the land to split the Alliance. It sounds more like a reaction to the Night Elves already showing up. Alliance forces are already split in two, so until the Horde narrative explicitly and very CLEARLY states that this is a continuation of the plan to split the Alliance forces, then stating that that’s the reason is just speculation and not fact. The only fact we have is that they are doing this to cripple the Night Elf war machine that’s already present at the battle field.
Speculating is fun, but speculation is not fact. Especially with a writing team that enjoys keeping the information as vague as possible in order to give themselves room to pick a real canon later on.
Edit. And I mean use fire if time is essential. Otherwise, cutting the trees down for lumber is even better.
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I think a lot of the evilness comes from the fact that the Horde is desecrating the sacred lands of the Night Elves after invading their land, burning their city, and forcing the entire race to become refugees, in an unprovoked war of aggression. It makes a degree of sense to fight against the Night Elves, but its still evil, because the horde are still the aggressors. No judgement on Horde players, just saying what I’m thinking.
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I should comment, while they are blighting the trees they actually are very specific with what they want to blight. The shore, and the forests around the shore, Faranell feels if they create a line of blight through this area the Night Elves would not be able to sneak around, likewise blight tanks are containing Ivus and the cannisters are being hurled in the druids direction. They want that zone, and the wildlife within it so dead that the Night Elves can’t use a single thing there.
Fire is being used to hose down the druids and their sentinels specifically, they want them roasted and the trees around from for good measure. There ARE zones around the camp that have been secured and being tended to by automated goblin harvesters.
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Yes, but ANYTHING the Horde does in Darkshore is evil from that perspective. They could be building shrines to the Elements and chopping down trees to create farmland and that would still be frowned on because it’s being done ‘in the sacred land of the night elves’. There’s no winning argument there.
I know this may be hard to grasp, but attacking your enemies doesn’t necessarily make you evil. The Night Elves have long been in opposition to the Horde. I’m more than willing to agree that the merciless tactics employed, specifically in burning Teldrassil, was quite evil. Simply being the aggressor when you are already at war, however, that’s neither good nor bad. That’s taking initiative.
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My God, how are the tauren / troll druids even tolerating this right now? Never mind the pandaren. And even the blood elves still respect nature and know firsthand the permanence of undead desecration of ancient homelands.
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I agree to an extent, but you can’t just attack somebody, and then use their efforts to defend themselves as an excuse for further bad behavior. The Horde and Alliance were at peace. The Horde broke that peace when they invaded Ashenvale and Darkshore. I would indeed argue that any Horde presence in any Night Elf land is evil, especially when they are desecrating and destroying the lands that are literally a central part of Night Elf culture and religion. I’m not saying that the Horde needs to be dismantled for it, and I’m certainly not saying Horde players should feel guilty for it, but I think we Night Elves have pretty good reason to be upset by it.
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That is…questionable, I agree that the Burning of Darnassus was bad, the War of Thorns however was not. I was hoping the attack on the Night Elves was to capture Genn Greymane, since I consider Stormheim as the start in a long chain of diplomatic blunders that lead to the Night Elves being struck. Stormheim proved that the Alliance would use a void of information in and of itself to justify an attack, and not just any attack but an assassination on the Hordes Warchief, that could NOT be tolerated.
With Azerite emerging out of the ground Darnassus could of been used to funnel an immense amount of…let’s be honest, this stuff is basically plutonium…to the Allaince to do who knows what. I wouldn’t say the war on Ashenvale was unprovoked per say.
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Last I heard, weren’t the shamans setting fires to the Ancients in Darkshore and boosting the fire and wind to burn Teldressil?
Edit: I’m sure the Blood Elves were also there helping in with the wholesale slaughter of the Night Elves. Heck one of them specifically hunted Malfurion.
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I agree to an extent, but you can’t just attack somebody, and then use their efforts to defend themselves as an excuse for further bad behavior.
Nobody is making that claim? The Forsaken and Goblins don’t need an excuse to burn/blight any particular stretch of ground. They aren’t trying to punish the Night Elves, they’re trying to remove a tactical advantage
The Horde and Alliance were at peace. The Horde broke that peace when they invaded Ashenvale and Darkshore.
Pretty sure peace went out the window in Stormheim. Otherwise I don’t know how I spent so much time murdering Worgen in those Warden Towers during a time of peace.
I would indeed argue that any Horde presence in any Night Elf land is evil, especially when they are desecrating and destroying the lands that are literally a central part of Night Elf culture and religion.
Eh, the same can be said when Alliance forces move into lands sacred to the Tauren or the Trolls, and that has never stopped the elves, humans, or dwarves. In this case the evil of occupying another races sacred place is subjective.
I’m not saying that the Horde needs to be dismantled for it, and I’m certainly not saying Horde players should feel guilty for it, but I think we Night Elves have pretty good reason to be upset by it.
Oh, no doubt, and i agree with that. But objectively speaking, a conquering force taking steps to reduce the combat effectiveness of an insurgent force is just sound tactics is all I’m saying.
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I’m not sure what Tyrande Whisperwind, Malfurion Stormrage, or the Night Elf nation had to do with those things. Heck, you guys worked with both of those people at the exact same time. I don’t want to rehash all the Stormheim arguments here. I will agree that the Horde certainly have legitimate grievances against Greymane, and possibly against Anduin for insufficiently controlling or punishing Greymane. But to use that as a justification for invading the Night Elves? Sylvanas’ explicit planwas to invade us, occupy us, and hold us hostage in perpetuity. Saurfang, and the rest of the Horde, bought into this plan. As far as I am concerned, that was completely unjustified.
Stepping back for a moment, the question Musta asked is why so many people are reacting like this is evil. We are acting like this is evil because invading a country, burning down an entire city, and destroying the land is a pretty messed up thing to do. Even if you believe the invasion was not evil, I completely disagree that that gives the Horde any justification to do what they are doing to Darkshore. Our land is sacred to our religion. By destroying it you are also destroying our culture. I don’t care if that is just what Goblins and Forsaken do. Its wrong. Again, I’m not trying to make you guys feel guilty about this. I’m just expalining why so many people are taken aback. I hope you see things from my perspective.
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Well, when Anduin took issue with the Horde digging up shiny rock blood, Nelves sent their army. So… Nelves chose their team.
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I mean to me, what they had to do with it is pretty plain. In an ideal world I would of had Sylvanas ask each Alliance leader about Genn and take action based on their willingness to hand him over for Stormheim, but even barring that it’s hard to ignore that the Night Elves are part of a global superpower that at this point has threatened the Horde with extinction multiple times. Normally this wouldn’t be so bad as we’ve done the same to them in reverse, but Legion framed it so that even in the middle of an apocalypse the Alliance could turn at any moment.
The Night Elves are, whether we like it or not, part of a group of people who aid the same folks responsible for Stormheim frequently. They provide weapons, armor, food, shelter, and are frankly a border hazard to the Horde as the Alliance could use them as a staging ground for an attack at any time. Sure your land is sacred to your religion, but at the same time the things sacred to us, our homes, our livelihoods, are being consistently threatened by the group you owe allegiance to, even if you try to distance yourselves as much as you can.
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Because the Horde was attacked by the Alliance and the Night Elves are part of the Alliance? And the Night Elves had just dispatched all of their troops to Silithus to attack the Horde’s mining operation? Because this made them the most vulnerable part of the Alliance that the full might of the Horde could easily come down on?
I know it’s easy to see the Night Elves as innocent victims here given how horribly they were brutalized, but as I stated the night Elves have long opposed the Horde and even house Genn Greymane and the Worgen at Teldrassil. Just because the storyline in Legion forced Horde players to work with the Night Elven leadership in one zone that doesn’t erase any of the prior bad blood between them and the Horde. The Night Elves are not as innocent as you put them forth to be.
Stepping back for a moment, the question Musta asked is why so many people are reacting like this is evil. We are acting like this is evil because invading a country, burning down an entire city, and destroying the land is a pretty messed up thing to do. Even if you believe the invasion was not evil, I completely disagree that that gives the Horde any justification to do what they are doing to Darkshore. Our land is sacred to our religion. By destroying it you are also destroying our culture. I don’t care if that is just what Goblins and Forsaken do. Its wrong. Again, I’m not trying to make you guys feel guilty about this. I’m just expalining why so many people are taken aback. I hope you see things from my perspective.
Seems like you are assuming I meant why is the attack in general seen as evil. What I meant specifically is that I don’t see why destroying an enemy’s tactical advantage is being seen as evil. You can ascribe whatever moral attributes you want to either side in the conflict based on how you feel about the factions and races involved.
What I’m saying is that it’s ridiculous to me that the Forsaken and Goblins destroying some trees is being treated with the same ‘morally grey’ jokes as when they burned night elf civilians alive. I see this perspective, but I don’t understand it.
I’ve never gotten why Night Elves as a race seem to have this thing where the life of a tree is as sacred as a person’s. It’s probably one of the main reasons why I have no problem with the Horde conflicting with the Night Elves over resources.
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Tyurande, Malfurion and the Nelves actively harbor the doggoes who attacked in Stormheim.
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