Horde are winning 99% of AV's and also getting 99% of the HKs

Why do you not have a stealth team killing the horde summon ritual?

Oh that’s right because alliance can’t seem to understand what PvP is in AV seeing as outside of AV weekend it’s all pve focused alliance.

You always complain about how horde kill the druids, yet you never even try to kill the shamans. Heck, if you are late to stopping the summon you can still have 1 mounted alliance aggro the raid boss while mounted and run him around a bit to delay him.

Horde typically don’t defend the shamans right now because alliance don’t even bother to go offense at all.

That’s because by that point alliance are trapped behind SH.

There is no argument the sky is made of unicorn piss, the changing colors prove that and there’s even rainbows from time to time, this is clearly solid proof that the sky is made of unicorn piss.

I feel this is true, so it must be true!

Alliance are trapped be 40 horde, yet there are 40 horde attacking your base, somehow the match is a 40vs 80…

The reality is the matches are 20vs40 by that point because alliance give up by 10 minutes into the game, if they had not already given up by 0 minutes into the game that is.

I don’t need to restate things that have been said 100s of times, you can make a point for where alliance have a greater advantage than horde anywhere on the map if you like, but you’re going to be wrong almost certainly.

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Screaming things on repeat with your fingers in your ears doesn’t make it true.

So again, the sky is made of unicorn piss, I’m just using your “logic” for this argument by the way.

This isn’t an argument, it’s a statement of fact. I could get out the crayons and draw it for you but you’d do the same thing any map advantage denier would and say “Nuh-uh.”

Literally name any portion of the map and I can tell you the difference horde vs alliance and why the horde are favored, I’m not going over every situation to prove something blatantly obvious to anyone with an understanding of the map.

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Answer to a simple question : Is AV favoring the horde ? yes or not ?

Based on historical evidence of the 1.12 AV?
No

Based on current evidence it’s impossible to say as alliance are not even trying to play the map as a majority.

With these two answered being compared the conclusion can be made that if the map favors the horde it’s a small amount at best because the sample size of data (15 years of historical data from vanilla, then private servers using 1.12 AV) to 1 year of classic data show an alliance favored results yet current data suggests otherwise.

So then we have to look at what has changed? The number one answer to that is the players.

So then we look at how the players could have changed. Was a new strategy found that was unknown for the 15 years? No, the strategy currently called scorched earth by alliance was known for at least 12 years but didn’t cause such drastic changes in win rates as we are seeing in this 1 year of classic.

Did the player base priority on the map change? Yes, it is not as an effective HPH farm for alliance because of the forced delayed que times and because many alliance have already reached exalted on their main character for AV they are not prioritizing going into AV with good gear because they are playing it to exalted for alts now.

This means that because the HPH priority is gone, the priority changed to reputation, which once achieved will not see the players main character in AV again and it’s now time for an alt to go to AV, which typically has considerably worse gear. Adding this to the average for alliance means their team is usually undergeared compared to horde who still play AV for HPH due to all of the PvP BG que times still being somewhat long.

So in general there is a gear level difference that is a considerable factor in win rates.

Next we look at both teams priority in the game. Alliance want to maximize reputation, horde want to maximize honor.

This means alliance will directly hurt their win condition for more rep while horde get the most honor for going for objectives that directly benifit their win conditions.

And with considering this and that alliance priority BiS not honor but rep, it shows us that players who are playing AV as alliance are more interested in pve rewards they get from AV reputation. This means the average AV alliance player is not a skilled pvpers but a pve player doing PvP for the rewards that help his pve performance. This equates a skill difference on horde vs alliance inside of the AV map on average because the horde inside of AV are typically more focused on PvP in general than the alliance in AV and will on average be better at reacting to non scripted PvP conditions instead of the scripted pve conditions that many alliance players in AV are more focused on.

Lastly we look at motivation to win each individual game instead of going to the next one. With the que times being what they are for alliance it’s not all that hard to get into AV, but for horde it’s hours of waiting and resulted in more motivation to try in that AV instead of try again on the next one. This means horde don’t give up 10 minutes into a losing game on average while alliance do because they can lose, and just go to the next one. It’s a negative side effect of “instant gratification” for wait times for things in terms of alliance motivation.

The que times also ha e a second hand effect, farming for consumables. Horde are more likely to use a consum inside of AV than alliance purely because we have more time to farm because of how long we have to wait to get I to an AV vs alliance wait times. This compounds the skill and gear difference to be more impactful as horde will have more Mana health or raw stats (potions/elixirs) or more damage CC utility (engineering) or both as they will have more time to farm these items or gold to buy these items and use them more freely than alliance on average.

With all of these factors being considered it makes it hard to view if the map is the problem, but then we add in AV weekend. Where the alliance winrate jumps up by a good 30% on average when the PvP focused alliance main characters come back to AV as it’s finally close enough to the HPH farm requirements to let them play AV without feeling like they are falling behind in the honor farm.

This evens up the average gear/skill levels of the map by quite a bit (still not perfect because the alliance alt rep farmers are still in the games but enough to show the impact the gear/skill difference is having) with this we see a near 99% loss rate going to 60-70% loss rate on average. And considering this AV weekend still doesn’t remove the alliance alt rep farmers and just adds the good PvP players with gear back into the equation we will say it puts them at 50% good PvP mains and 50% rep farming alts. This means that if it was a 100% good PvP mains team the win rate would be at least near 50% because just putting half of them in at an even 50% ratio pits them at +30% win rate. So it would be a +60% winrate until you add in horde adapting to the change in player base, which is why I took 10% off that winrate. This results at an estimated 50% winrate.

There is a lot of factors to consider for this issue and I have likely just scratched the surface with this explanation but in general is the map the issue was your question.
No it’s not.

Could it be causing a 5-10% winrate different one way or the other? Sure it could, but there’s a lot of factors that can’t be looked at individually until the other factors are made more even. And with the difference in player gear / skill on average it’s very hard to say how much of a factor the map is having and I can say with certainty it is not the cause of the 99% loss rate for AV alliance alt rep farmers.

And considering historical evidence shows alliance have the map advantage and that’s a 15+ year sample size vs a 1 year sample size of classic. I’m inclined to believe the evidence that shows the map does not favor the horde especially considering the other factors that contribute to the win conditions as shown above.

I like your novel you wrote but you seem to like to over hype things trying to make the “shyte” you write more accurate.
You are getting lost in statistics…history… blah blah blah.
Take a good look at the map. But since you talk shyte as i have seen in previous posts you fail to see the very basic layout of the map : GY positions…areas around them, bottlenecks, distances between certain areas… so on so on. Sadly you failed to notice all these and any further debate on you on this topic is pointless.
You cant change the view of a person( not to call you how actually I would like to call you) who can not notice these things and simply points out the same crap : Horde better than Alliance. And with this statement the issue is settled from your point of view.

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Alliance also like to dismiss the impact the bridge and having access to a 30 Rez per cycle has on their ability to deny horde access to their main base. But we know they haven’t been using that in classic.

If the alliance are not using their strongest map advantages and ignoring them of use or even consideration of course the map will look like it favors horde.

You Rez at the cave or the GY for alliance depending on where they die, if they are on the bridge they will go to the cave.bif they are at 20 yards away from the bridge (still close enough to attack horde crossing it or heal alliance fighting on it) they Rez at their GY.

This gives the alliance the advantage of being able to chose where they Rez and lets them Rez behind the horde to attack their back line if they so chose.

But by this point of the game the alliance alt rep farmers have already given up. They don’t send stealth teams to do disruption capping, to stop shaman summon, exc.

The backdoor has been fixed so there is no excuse as to why the bridge defending isn’t working, it’s a player issue at this point.

Also the PvP main horde are not better than the PvP main alliance. I’m not claiming that at all…

I’m claiming the average AV alliance player is not the better side of what the alliance has to offer for multiple reasons while the average horde AV player is higher in the hordes pvp focused player on average because horde still play AV for HPH.

Alliance PvP mains have left AV until it’s AV weekend when it’s finally enough HPH for them to be worth queing for it.

Let’s say the best PvP players on both sides are equally skilled (on average this is true). Now let’s say those players are a 10 rating.

In AV we see alliance with an average player rating of 5, with horde at 8. Not because horde are better, but because the better alliance players are not in AV unless it’s AV weekend. Let’s say on AV weekend the alliance get their 10 players into AV

Then we see it go from 5 to a 7.5 because 5+10/2=7.5. this is still slightly behind horde on the average player skill of 8 not because of better players on horde, but because in general the better players of horde never left AV and has allowed the worse horde players to learn from them or at the very least get somewhat used to listening to their instructions and trying to win. While the 5 players from alliance have a defeatist mentality which leads then to drag their team down more because they already assume they will lose because they are used to playing at. 5 level, not the 8 they now have, thus their skill level goes down by .5 because of a lack of motivation and choosing to keep playing as if they have a 5 strength.

This does mean the good alliance players have to play better in AV to win. Not because of horde skill/gear or even the map, but because the lack of gear / skill from a decent number of their own teammates and those teammates not playing for the win.

Do you call the bridge a strong point ? You do realize horde are getting up on the rocks behind the bunker right ?
And about being rezzed in the cave… You do realize the moment you step out of the cave … what is a bottle neck you are killed by the horde outside.
Thanks a lot again for your input.
Next ?

You realize the backdoor your referring to got fixed right?

You realize the only way horde are bottle necking you into that cave is if your team is 1.not sending enough people back with their trinket or
2. Your team is giving no form of offensive push at the bridge so they can have 5-10 people at the bridge and the other 30 at your cave?

It’s not the map, learn to play with your advantages, alliance have done it for 15 years in 1.12 AV now it’s impossible in classic?

I re-rolled from Horde to the Alliance to get away from the 2 hour q times. It is a crap show, but at least I get to play the game. Alliance are spoiled with insta-Q’s, so they treat it like an ez rep grind, Horde it’s a 2 hour wait for glory. There are quite a few AFK start of Alliance game. Yes the map is a bit of a factor. Mostly it’s morale, lack of strats, not buffing before gates open. I have been in some close games though, where people want to win. There is def. a pent up demand for people that want to win. All in all I’m glad I get to play AV with insta Q times, and I enjoy the challenge. If you want Dark Souls Classic WoW, come to Alliance AV haha

I enjoy working on my strats and trying to get the faction in more of a fighting shape.

Next try working on your brain and how you’re having trouble understanding the IBGY problem.

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Ya the map is imbalanced, what do you want from me, i’m not a dev

Let me give you an easy example of how bad the map is.
Right now I am doing Av on my hunter. Yesterday 25 of us were assaulting IBGY. Horde was already in our base taking our towers. 15-20 horde were fighting us at IBGY. We spinned the flag hoping we will resist 5 min but we couldnt hold it because no matter how many times we were killing those horde they were always running back fast because your cave is uber close. Right now I have 3500 Mana and during the fight I was always in battle so I couldnt drink. The same mage I killed made it 3 times back to IBGY, time during I ran out of mana and health. And he wasnt the only one.
If you cant see this example as a clear map advantage then this argument about AV map is really pointless.

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So you didn’t leave the battle to get a drink? Every single “advantage” can easily be countered. You guys should have focused more on sustaining and surviving rather than expleting all your resoucres to kill people 3 times over.