What a found really hilarious is that people believe that saying Blood Elves = High Elves will make the remaining High Elves somewhat non-existent or dead.
It’s really funny.
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It’s a flawed argument, too. Blood Elves may have been High Elves, but High Elves are definitley not blood elves
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It doesn’t matter what they have access to lorewise, the player-race only has access to that ONE skin tone. The problem is what the players have access to, not what could be seen with NPCs, as those themes are not acquirable. It doesn’t bother anyone that high elves exist, it bothers people that they might became playable, and the themes that were once exclusive to Blood elves is lost to other playable races.
The model, and animations are an infringement, but the Alliance already posses them, and we can live with that if some of the remaining themes can still retain their exclusivity to Blood elves. What other races have is not a concern to us, it’s what other elven races, (thalassian ones especially) are given that are the issue to players.
It’s funny how you belittle the importance of the color schemes of hair, and skin, and yet it’s always these individual themes you’re unwilling to compromise on, almost like you, and many other helf supporters readily recognize why they’re so crucial to defining the race and why you strive for them over all other aesthetic themes. Well it’s important to us as well, and we’d like to keep at least one visual fantasy unique to blood elves.
The point is you already have the blood elf model, and it’s animations, and now you want the last remaining themes to blood elves as well. A different posture, or hair style isn’t the solution to that, as you’re avoiding just why those individual themes were not infringed upon when void elves were made.
The argument isn’t that there isn’t more to visual identity, it’s how crucial those individual visual themes are to defining Blood elves that’s the issue. One that players and devs have iterated to the pro community for some time now.
And as others have said in accordance to pandarians, the difference is they were released to each faction at the same time, it was not like they were playable to the Alliance for 10 years, and then the Horde suddenly got them. Pandarans as a race did not have years of establishing an identity with a player base on a faction for a decade, so there was resistance or issue of infringing on player and race identity.
I never denied that a unique model can present a distinction, but it’s important to acknowledge the difference in races involved in this scenario. The Horde did not get an exact replica of Night elves, nor did they get an identical skin color to Night elves either, which is what you’re asking for with High elves. The Nightborne resemble Night elves, but not enough to infringe on what really defines a night elf.
On the other hand, Void elves are practically a copy and paste of Blood elves, with an identical model, and animations. You essentially got the Blood elf package, simply in void form. To go a step further, and then ask now for the last remaining, visual themes to blood elves is when things become a problem. Night elves can still choose to remain distinct visually from Nightborne in terms of color schemes, with a broad range of hair, and skin colors to choose from, while blood elves, they get one skin tone, one visual fantasy.
Having “Tan” shades of a skin color is not proper distinction, and it certainly isn’t a defining theme to blood elves - even Ion didn’t say “blonde haired, tan-skinned elves” he, like many other players are very clear on this.
Yes, it can, but only if you’re willing to play by the rules. Telling the players and the devs what is, and isn’t defining themes of their race is not the solution however. The boundaries were set, and it’s up to you whether or not they are guidelines you’re willing to work with or not.
Visual fantasy, and lore fantasy are not mutually exclusive, it is a matter of circumstance that Void elves are a race with very little story depth, but that is not an argument that will withstand the test of time. It is an argument that will wither as content is produced, and their race is given more exposure, and depth.
Visual fantasy is essential, and crucial to what defines a race as it’s what all players see, regardless of whether or not they bother with the storyline. The playable races are the very faces of the game, and it’s important to the players and the devs that they remain somewhat exclusive when upi choose who you want to play, especially in a game centered around faction conflict, and pride.
Culturally, yes. And High elves can certainly fulfill those lore fantasies, but not with the same visual fantasy as Blood elves. It’s a strange argument to suggest that the only way to achieve, and fulfill these goals is if both these themes hold hands across the finish-line, when either can be achieved without infringing on the themes of another race, especially when it’s one of the very few themes that exist, and define that race. It’s the very reason why void elves were addressed in this very manner, and why skin, and hair color were themes changed so drastically from their High elf, and blood elf kin.
It isn’t though, as Blood elves do not have access, nor are they defined by a wide variety of hair, and skin colors, especially not to the degree that night elves are. Night elves have a choice from 12 different skin colors, and 8 different hair colors, so another elven race sharing one hair color, and a non-matching purple shade of skin is certainly not a parallel to High elves and blood elves sharing identical skin, and hair colors. If blood elves had a choice between multiple skin colors, one skin color would not be as defining, and crucial to defining them visually, but they don’t.
You can get away with certain overlaps, if the original has variety of different choices that allow them to maintain a proper disparity between the race they’re sharing a theme with. A luxury Blood elves do not share with Night elves. If this weren’t the case it wold not have been the key reasoning Ion went to when he rationalized why they chose Void elves over Blood elves, and why these individual themes are so sought after by pros and antis alike.
You can’t belittle the importance of this theme, while also remaining unmovable in compromising on it. It perfectly mirrors the argument, and why antis stand against it in the first place. You acknowledge how imperative this visual theme is to defining high elves, just as Blood elf players acknowledge how imperative it is in defining Blood elves, to suggest otherwise undermines your very argument and perspective you’re discussing from.
The difference is that the Nightborne’s counterpart isn’t restricted in the same way Blood elves are. Night elves are not so crucially defined by their shared themes with Nightborne, as Blood elves are with High elves. Focusing on comparable themes between the two groups that actually don’t even really perfectly match is a flimsy argument, that doesn’t hold up very well under scrutiny.
The problem isn’t sharing these themes, it’s that they’re being suggested as solutions to create a disparity between Blood elves, when they are themes the Blood elves currently represent in-game. The fact that some customizations are currently are unused, doesn’t make them any less resembling of the blood elf cultural aesthetic.
If for example my desire were to not be mistaken as my twin, I wouldn’t walk into their closet and wear one of their outfits with the logic that if I’m wearing it they can’t, and thus I’m visually distinct, and unique to them. The solution to creating a disparity is to build upon what already defines, and makes high elves unique, and furthering that fantasy as to draw upon that distinction further.
Yes they both have changed, but one still represents, and is defined by honoring and carrying on the culture, and themes of their past, while the other is defined by moving past it. None are the actual “traditional” high elves, but to ignore what makes high elves unique, and to backtrack on it by returning to a theme they’ve largely abandoned culturally makes little sense.
It’s gotten to the point where Blood elf players are not even allowed to ask for themes that fit perfectly with their background and traditions without pros derailing the thread, and undermining the suggestions with comments on how their sole purpose is to upset, and troll high elf players. It’s behavior like this that has made Blood elf players even more fiercely protective of themes they believe they have every right to, from High elf players. I realize that not all Pros think this way, but it’s certainly a stigma when regarding the community.
It’s not that high elves cannot have any connection to their past, it’s that they cannot be used as solutions or methods to create a disparity between Blood elves. Especially when these solutions are made with the uncompromising notion that they also must be fair-skinned, and blonde haired as well. At it certain point it feels like an entire theme is being swept up from under the blood elf players feet.
And yet again, this very same “barring” is being imposed on Blood elf players, and is the true root of the issue. That if these themes were given to High elves, they would certainly be seen as defining, cultural themes to them over Blood elves while also indulging in a unique humanesque theme for themselves. If the argument for why they should be playable is how distinct and unique they are, you cannot rationalize that they should also be allowed share themes with the blood elves as well. It’s like agreeing to a compromise, when the only one that ends up compromising is the other party.
I saw trade chat talking about high elves and adding them one day a little while back. It was quite an eye opener since I dont think about this stuff getting that far, but it was cool to see the support.
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Well lets do a little thought excercise. Where do we all see the game heading?
Ok, So you had Legion. We fought a buncha fel dudes and helped guys along the way Boom ARs. They all made sense.
BFA we recruit people to each side to fight each other.Except for AU orcs they all make sense.
Next expansion: So now we get to territroy where new ARs can be a thing and make sense. Trend has it that each AR has been part of a major plotline to the expansion. Kul’tirans and Jaina, Zandalari and G’huun. LF draenei and Argus… etc etc
Next expansion dealing with Old Gods…High Elves i don’t see it. I dont see how they would tie in. If we get any ARs at all it’d likely be Ogres.
Next Expansion after that? What could follow an Old God Expansion? Well were gettin pretty fanciful now, each threat bigger than the rest. Maybe Void Lords/Evil; Naaru.
I’m trying to find a path which makes sense for the current story following to fit these guys in and personally i dont see it for at least another 5 years. Which is a really long time.
Void elves were literally made up on the spot and just tossed in randomly to the argus story (just because alleria was found there or whatever doesnt make the story following it any good). I am pretty sure blizz can at least do better than that with NPCs and characters that already have been in the game for 15 years.
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Pretty much.
I imagine they had a team meeting and said “ok guys, we need to give the alliance elves with blue eyes that aren’t high elves because reasons. So what ideas you got?” And someone spewed out the hot garbage idea that is void elves
And Blizzard, for some god forsaken reason, approved it…
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decursed naga? dark rangers? san’layn?
my argument for high elves has evolved over time -
since wow is actually based loosely on d&d and all wow elves are dark elf offshoots, we haven’t actually encountered traditional elves in wow. we’re in drow world. all our elves are variations of drow. and traditional elves come from a totally different dimension and thus far, aren’t represented by wow’s troll descendants.
so pull some traditional elves from another dimension, like emerald dream.
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I am so happy to see this thread hasn’t been bombed yet. With that being said…
I have returned to give my continued support for High Elves in the Alliance! The fight shall never be over until we get what we deserve!
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After the alliance story and ARs this expac, blizzard is going to have to redeem themselves I think.
And if they can pull void elves out of the void, and pull a time travel shenanigan to give the horde all the maghar clans (while also turning Yrel and co into villains) then they can figure out high elves for the alliance.
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Thank goodness it’s open again… Can we please have our thread now?
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I’d hope that High Elves wouldn’t need an entire expansion dedicated to them. The cinematics told us that the Alliance is recruiting farmers to fight, so perhaps Vereesa or whoever could rally all remaining Alliance High Elves to bolster their forces as much as possible
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It’s been a while but the countered arguments bear repeating:
They are biologically the same race - Not relevant because they exist on both factions, and have cultural and political differences. Pandaren exist on both factions as well and stand as an example that this is not a relevant argument. And before anyone erroneously claims Blizzard thinks Pandaren were a mistake, in truth, no current Blizzard employee has ever said such a thing as far as we know. After leaving Blizzard, a former employee once said he thought they were a mistake, but that is one former employee’s opinion and not one ever corroborated by anyone while employed at Blizzard.
They look the same - They don’t have to. Simple things like a unique idle stance, different hair styles, and different customization options all address the silhouette issue and none of those things require any sort of physiological or magical excuse to justify. If you’re desperate to find a biological justification for any differences… well they have been “diluting their blood lines” with humans for some time now as Elisande pointed out. Also, currently a Void Elf in full armor has an identical silhouette to a Blood Elf in the same full armor. A unique idle stance alone would make the High Elf silhouette noticeably different from either.
High Elves detract from the Blood Elf story - No they really don’t. High Elves have their own story to tell that has nothing to do with Blood Elves beyond the point of their split. That is the story that High Elves have to tell and should be focused on.
High Elves are already playable on the Horde - Blood Elves are playable on the Horde. The High Elves being asked for currently exist as NPC’s on the Alliance faction. We are asking for those High Elves to be made playable.
There is no logical justification to oppose playable Alliance High Elves.
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Not to mention that, given that Thalassian Elves that identify as High Elves can be considered enemies of the Horde (at least until things calm down enough story wise), they’d never be allowed anywhere else except Silvermoon City by themselves, and with some of the things that have happened over the course of WoW, they might even be closely monitored.
Theoretically they could probably still visit other cities of the Horde too but they’d need some kind of watcher, most likely. Depending on the time-frame it could get extremely violent and unpleasant extremely fast otherwise.
Going forward, who knows? Some sort of an Elven reunification could happen for example, which would actually finally address the HIgh Elves somehow. Or they become a playable Allied Race. Hell, maybe they become the first neutral Allied race. I dunno. That one’s probably highly improbable but then I suppose you never know.
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Countering the argument takes a little more effort than saying “Nuh-uh!” Although to be fair, you did throw in a lot of words to say that.
They don’t make sense to add otherwise. The faction conflict is dead. This was the expansion thee expansion to recruit anyone and everyone to your side. Elves didn’t make the cut. Foxes and Junkyard Gnomes likely did.
Well thats opinion, not fact. What doesn’t make sense to you makes sense to them.
Honestly idk what story you could give them that hasn’t already been covered by other expansions. The only thing i can think of is possibly a dragon expansion but we covered the dragons in Cata, Dragon Isle would likely be a patch feature and not an expansion story.
Interviewer: So what have the High Elves been doing this entire time?
High Elf: Well as you know we helped against the Lich King, we poked our heads in during MOP, we stopped by and said hello to Crazy Great Aunt Ellisande, didn’t stay for Argus though cus lets be honest green isn’t our color.
And uh we sent a few idiots who got caught sniffing glue to find some islands with magical rocks. Gotta punish the troops for being dumb you know.
Interviewer: And what are your plans now?
High Elf: Well i don’t know actually. Maybe form a soccer league.
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the next expansion I expect no allied races whatsoever. none. Nadda. This is entirely due to because I believe the leaks are true about what the next expansion is and it wouldn’t make sense to recruit any new races if so.
10.0 however I believe will be an old world revamp. Coming out of the next expansion whatever it may be it will be the perfect time to do so. Maybe even apply a small timeskip. an old world revamp would be the perfect time to add allied races such as high elves, wildhammer, ogres, and forest trolls.
Thats certainly a possible future. Though i’d argue Ogres are coming in 9.0. I just have a feeling they will be helpful against Old Gods.
'xplain? 