High Elf Allied Race Megathread (Continuation)

[Broflake-illidan]

I feel like the Elves that chose to remain amongside humans and dwarves are most likely to not hold prejudice against humans and dwarves.

I mean, supposedly blood elves at times have a thing against trolls but we still work with them.

I feel like the High Elves made their allegiance pretty clear when they chose to remain with the Alliance after Anasterian withdrew Quel’Thalas.

They were still loyal to Quel’thalas at the time, they simply chose to remain and continue assisting the alliance with the threats they faced. The issue became one when AFTER quel’thalas fell that they said
“We’re going to stay with the alliance over here, even though our people are dying and trying to survive.” which is why they are considered traitors and even then, they were still allowed by Lor’themar to pilgrimage to the sunwell, and they STILL did pilgrimage.

If they were all about their loyalty to the alliance, they wouldn’t go to the sunwell for pilgrimage because they get the benefits from anywhere.
They wouldn’t associate or try peace talks with their blood elven people because their people are working with the horde. It doesn’t sound like loyalty at all.
It is a very pragmatic way to behave, much like blood elves.

Who are still the guys that tried to murderkill them all, who they fought against in the First and Second Wars.

and yet despite this, still made Saurfang the general of alliance/horde armies with NO protest whatsoever.

If the choice you get is

• Remain alongside humans, dwarves and gnomes, who you’ve been working alongside for years, decades or centuries depending where you’re from
• Join up with the orcs, who tried to kill you and your people for the longest time and are responsible for the worst wars the world has ever seen, as well as trolls and undead and what-not just so you can see your racist cousin again

Feels like the right answer is pretty clear

Let me add a bit more.
Remain alongside humans, dwarves, and gnomes who stood by and watched your kingdom fall.

OR

join up with the horde who not only welcomes and understands your plight, but is willing and able to give you the resources to restore your people.

The alliance are not without conducting wrongs.

he internment camp period of the Orcs was marked by raw abuse like throwing sewage and human waste at them.

-The Alliance tried to capture Thrall after he’d left the Horde to go train in Outland and save Azeroth.

-The Alliance fired on a non-aggressive Goblin ship to cover up the act

-Humans have been showed to needlessly torture prisoners. Such as kicking an Orc in the head until his eyes came out in Honor’s Stand.

-Varian’s dumbass tried to cut Thrall in half in the Undercity after Thrall had just slain Varimathras.

-Varian ordered a pre-emptive assault on the Horde in Cataclysm before Garrosh did anything. They’d cut through the Barrens before the Cataclysm even happened.

-Jaina profiles the entire Sunreaver population because of non-identified internal traitors and forces them to leave their city or be imprisoned.

-Vereesa undermines Dalarans offer to let the Sunreavers go peacefully by killing their mounts so they can’t escape.

HUmans were shown to be very cruel and very hateful. We cannot suggest the alliance has always been pure good, and i unfortunately, it seems the high elves are more than willing to go along with it in their hatred of blood elves.
A hatred that stems over what they did to survive.

Again, it does not sound like loyalty or the idea of moral good. It sounds very pragmatic of using what ties you have already to fulfill your own agency.

Now mind you, I am not saying they are not at all loyal, but I am trying to demonstrate their views and actions are not unique compared to their blood elven period. They view things very similarly as much as they may wish to say otherwise.

[Lavinya-moon-guard]

They were still loyal to Quel’thalas at the time, they simply chose to remain and continue assisting the alliance with the threats they faced. The issue became one when AFTER quel’thalas fell that they said

As put by the Visual Guide

most modern high elves remained loyal to the Alliance following the Second War, disobeying royal edicts from their reclusive masters to return home.

Seems like they weren’t that loyal to Quel’Thalas anymore

Let me add a bit more.
Remain alongside humans, dwarves, and gnomes who stood by and watched your kingdom fall.

Lordaeron fell before Quel’Thalas. The Alliance bigger issues to deal with than go help a former member.

join up with the horde who not only welcomes and understands your plight, but is willing and able to give you the resources to restore your people.

Whose plight? Not High Elves’. They were already part of the Alliance, before Blood Elves joined the Horde.

Blood Elves and High Elves weren’t each others’ people, not in WCIII, not in Classic, not in TBC, not ever again.

[Broflake-illidan]

As put by the Visual Guide

That does not mean you cease being loyal to your kingdom, it simply means you choose to obey.
For example, U.S. law actually has a provision that permits disobedience of an order from a superior officer, including the U.S. president if the officer feels it would be violating international law.

THat does not make the soldier no longer loyal to the U.S.

I imagine it was the same way, because if this was the case, why would Vereesa ever go back to Silvermoon to visit the Sunwell with Lorthemar being regent lord?
You get my point?
If you’re disloyal, you’d not do anything to be associated with them, especially since Lorthemar was around during this time period and gained his regency right after the second war.

but…she’s disloyal to the kingdom of quel 'thalas? Don’t you see how contradictory it sounds?

Edit: Damn it Lavinya you ninja editted.

Lordaeron fell before Quel’Thalas. The Alliance bigger issues to deal with than go help a former member.

The alliance failed to assist the Gnomes as well.
They were solely for protecting themselves entirely., and were in full fledged “we need to protect ourselves.”.
So why would you ally with them, an ally that proves when things go bad they will not asisst you, compared to another group that is willing and capable of doing so? Particularly because Lorthemar stated they could not maintain ghostlands without assistance?

Whose plight? Not High Elves’. They were already part of the Alliance, before Blood Elves joined the Horde.

Definitely high elves, because those blood elves were still high elves.

Blood Elves and High Elves weren’t each others’ people, not in WCIII, not in Classic, not in TBC, not ever again.

You don’t stop being human just because you declare yourself no longer human. Otherwise, Valeera would not assosciate with blood elves at all, but she has done so.
Alleria herself as well considers the blood elves a part of her people as well.
The entire story just paints high elves in a really bad light.

[Avarie-farstriders]

I think what some people overlook is that bonds formed with people outside of family can be much stronger than family ties, and friends can become a chosen family. If they forged bonds with the people they fought alongside it would be easy to stay with them, especially depending on family dynamics.

Just being related to someone doesn’t mean you are obligated to abandon people you actually love, and who love you.

[Lavinya-moon-guard]

The land of Quel’Thalas and the Government of Quel’Thalas are two different things. High Elves might love their homeland, but they refused to obey their “reclusive masters” who ruled that land.

They had the option to go back home and seclude themselves once more, living far away from all the troubles faced by the Alliance. Instead they chose to remain and help the Alliance deal with whatever came from then onwards.

[Broflake-illidan]

I think what some people overlook is that bonds formed with people outside of family can be much stronger than family ties, and friends can become a chosen family. If they forged bonds with the people they fought alongside it would be easy to stay with them, especially depending on family dynamics.

Just being related to someone doesn’t mean you are obligated to abandon people you actually love, and who love you.

That isn’t my point though, I am not necessarily debating what they chose to do. I am debating the interpretation of what occurred as a way of saying they have a culture of loyalty, even though they did a disloyal action.

They chose the alliance, over the survival of their people despite being called back to their home kingdom. That is consider an act of treason, an act of disloyalty. Afterwards, they then continued to do so and even went so far as to begin persecuting their people, and then disobeyed their own alliance faction to persecute the sun reavers.

That sounds less like a culture of loyalty. It i s very pragmatic.

The land of Quel’Thalas and the Government of Quel’Thalas are two different things. High Elves might love their homeland, but they refused to obey their “reclusive masters” who ruled that land.

They had the option to go back home and seclude themselves once more, living far away from all the troubles faced by the Alliance. Instead they chose to remain and help the Alliance deal with whatever came from then onwards.

You just supported my earlier point. They may have been disloyal to the government yes, but they can still be loyal to the people of it.
On the other hand, they acted without loyalty to their entire kingdom period, including their land, when the scourge came and obliterated them.

So how can you have a culture about loyalty that applies only at the convenience of opposing another side?
Dalaran is historically alliance, but when Dalaran offered to let the Sunreaver’s leave peacefully, Valeera went against her loyalty to the alliance and immediately began killing their mounts so they couldn’t escape?

How can the high elves have a culture of loyalty when they have so many examples of being disloyal? Particularly those involving the alliance where they ignore that alliance faction and do what they want?

You know who has a culture of loyalty? Orcs.
Nazgrim stayed loyal to the horde even after Hellscream committed his atrocities.

Or the Ebonblade, who are loyal to the DK faction and act for the greater good.

Loyalty is definitely not a culture for high elves.

[Lavinya-moon-guard]

You just supported my earlier point. They may have been disloyal to the government yes, but they can still be loyal to the people of it.
On the other hand, they acted without loyalty to their entire kingdom period, including their land, when the scourge came and obliterated them.

So how can you have a culture about loyalty that applies only at the convenience of opposing another side?

They chose the Alliance over Quel’Thalas. They made this clear when they refused to return after the Second War.

Why should they have abandoned everything and ran back to Quel’Thalas’ aid when the Alliance still needed them?

They didn’t owe anything to the people of Quel’Thalas.

And by TBC they definitely weren’t their people anymore.

[Avarie-farstriders]

I don’t know if I’d count being loyal to someone giving horrific orders as a noble quality. And again, they don’t owe loyalty to quel’thalas, especially if they formed stronger bonds within the alliance. Staying with those you love is not a bad quality.

[Broflake-illidan]

They chose the Alliance over Quel’Thalas. They made this clear when they refused to return after the Second War.

Why should they have abandoned everything and ran back to Quel’Thalas’ aid when the Alliance still needed them?

Hold on, but you just said they can be disloyal to the government but loyal to the land.
Now here is the thing though, if they choose the alliance over their own people? That is a disloyal action, that means they prefer the bonds they newly formed over those they established.

That loyalty also doesn’t mean much, because they completely disobeyed what Dalaran desired in lieu of their own personal vendetta. That isn’t really a culture of loyalty if you’re willing to disobey the very alliance you are pledging allegiance too.

They didn’t owe anything to the people of Quel’Thalas.

Besides the fact that is where they were born, raised, trained, fostered their friendship, the sunwell?
At the very least, again, the sunwell?
I can understand if they stated after the second war because hey, the alliance was in trouble and Quel’thalas was perfectly fine because of the defenses it had. That makes sense because hey, loyalty to your allies.

on the other hand, when Quel’thalas fell, they chose to remain with the alliance and displayed disloyalty to their own homeland. That doesn’t sound like a culture of loyalty. Hell we see the culture of loyalty through the orc race who follow damn near blindly because of loyalty.

And by TBC they definitely weren’t their people anymore.

Except at the end of TBC, the sunwell was restored, and their people; who by the way regretted having to do what they did; were then trying to make amends for what they had done.

Sooooo…it just sounds like high elves are just there to be opposed to Horde based high elves, also known as blood elves. Not because of loyalty to alliance, but because as demonstrated, the alliance is just a vehicle to enact their vendetta. Such as shown by Veressa Windrunner, when she completely undermined Dalaran in her persecution of the sun reavers.

That is also another example of disloyal behavior.
It is a very pragmatic action.
Very blood elven no less.

Those differences are not as great as you argue, especially given the history shown by the leader of the silver covenant and her high elves.

I don’t know if I’d count being loyal to someone giving horrific orders as a noble quality. And again, they don’t owe loyalty to quel’thalas, especially if they formed stronger bonds within the alliance. Staying with those you love is not a bad quality.

Everything can be bad or good depending on how you view it.
Varessa and the other’s chose to remain with the alliance during the second war. Okay that was disobedience, but it wasn’t disloyal.
It turned into disloyalty when Quel’thalas fell, and their people lost silver moon because knowing they needed help, they said “No.”.
They said “Yeah I know I was born, raised, trained, had friends there, oh and the sunwell that is my birthright was just destroyed buuuuut, I like my alliance.”

Now was Nazgrim’s actions noble? Haha. Nope. Was he loyal? Yes.
On the other hand, Dalaran said “Hey we’re going to let the sun reaver’s leave peacefully without blood shed. It is in our best interest not to foster a grudge.”

Veressa said “Oh no I am going to kill their mounts and undermine the alliance I am loyal to entirely.”.

You can’t claim to have a culture of loyalty, and then act disloyal multiple times.
It just means they have a pragmatic and self serving view of things. It is a very blood elven like behavior. They may be choosing different sides, but it is th enature of that action that matters.

it is why they are considered only politically different and not culturally different by the encyclopedia, and the encyclopedia has never been contradicted on this matter. Per the devs, unless it specifically is contradicted, it remains true.

I didn’t say loyal to the land. They might still love Quel’Thalas as their homeland. They don’t owe the people occupying it anything.

How so? Despite being raised there? Having friendships there? The birthright of the sunwell? Why are you ignoring these aspects?
Let alone remember, she went back to Silvermoon too. So clearly, she does care about her own people and doesn’t foster a culture about loyalty as much as everyone professes she does.

The Horde killed her husband and N’Zoth only knows how many High Elves and other civillains in Theramore earlier that expansion. And then not long after they were misusing Dalaran’s resources for war.

So she acted in a way that was self serving and pragmatic. How can high elves profess a culture of loyalty when they have two major acts where loyalty does not matter?

If it was loyalty to their alliance and friends, they wouldn’t disobey what Dalaran wanted in such a bloody way.
If it was a culture of loyalty, they wouldn’t have turned their back on Quel’thalas after its fall.

So where is this culture of loyalty when there are clear acts of what may arguably be considered treasonous behavior? We see more loyalty demonstrated by the blood elves if anything and even then, it is admitted to being due to pragmatism, not loyalty. To self serving behavior, which is exactly what we see in high elves.

[Lavinya-moon-guard]

Hold on, but you just said they can be disloyal to the government but loyal to the land.
Now here is the thing though, if they choose the alliance over their own people?

I didn’t say loyal to the land. They might still love Quel’Thalas as their homeland. They don’t owe the people occupying it anything.

Such as shown by Veressa Windrunner, when she completely undermined Dalaran in her persecution of the sun reavers.

The Horde killed her husband and N’Zoth only knows how many High Elves and other civillains in Theramore earlier that expansion. And then not long after they were misusing Dalaran’s resources for war.

[Broflake-illidan]

Check my previous reply. I edited instead of hitting reply. boo.

[Ruterot-barthilas]

I didn’t say loyal to the land. They might still love Quel’Thalas as their homeland. They don’t owe the people occupying it anything.

Generally speaking when people speak of love for one’s homeland it refers to the nation and its peoples not…the dirt.

[Somand-proudmoore]

The alliance failed to assist the Gnomes as well.
They were solely for protecting themselves entirely., and were in full fledged “we need to protect ourselves.”.

The Alliance didn’t know that the Gnomes needed help. The Gnomes kept their plight secret.

Mekkatorque briefly considered calling on the Alliance for help, but he abandoned the idea. Protecting Lordaeron from the Scourge was of the utmost importance, and he didn’t want to divert any resources from that front. In fact, he considered the northern campaign so important that he kept news of the trogg invasion a secret from his allies.

It would be years before the world learned of what had transpired in Gnomeregan, and of the sacrifices the gnomes had made in the name of the Alliance.

World of Warcraft: Chronicle Vol. 3, pg. 56

[Broflake-illidan]

The Alliance didn’t know that the Gnomes needed help. The Gnomes kept their plight secret.

Ah, my error there. Too much lore to keep track. I forgot they held out against the troggs in silence.

[Aidi-frostmourne]

Why should they have abandoned everything and ran back to Quel’Thalas’ aid when the Alliance still needed them?

Because Quel’thalas needed them and none of the Alliance kingdoms was in NEARLY as precarious a situation as Quel’thalas.

[Broflake-illidan]

Plus…the sunwell?
I mean, if there was a powerful magical artifact that was just corrupted and sending waves of entropic death magic through me and my people, I would be hella concerned.

The high elves werne’t though and so it comes off as just…scummy.
Particularly because no one was exiled due to what they would or would not manatap per the visual guide.
So it comes off as just…spiteful hate based on what you chose to eat.

[Aidi-frostmourne]

It seems super cowardly and selfish to me.

“Well, I could go work to save my people from the abyss or…I could stay in Stormwind where it’s nice and comfy.”

[Rothbart-wyrmrest-accord]

Lore and arguments aside, Blue eyes look cool on the Elf Models so I am for the High Elves being a race/ customization option. Looks like a lot of the community is into it so why not.

[Broflake-illidan]

There are blood elves with blue eyes in game.
Eye customization is also already under work, so making an entirely new race for a single option is a waste.
Please don’t give blizzard bad ideas.

[Celestinira-proudmoore (Celestinira)]

Looks like a lot of the community is into it so why not.

Thanks for your support!