Blizzard has already decided to deviate wildly by introducing Heroic Plus (H+) Dungeons, so why not just bring back Random Dungeon Finder (RDF) early? At least RDF was a part of WotLK (granted after ICC). H+ on the other hand was never part of this game.
Blizzard muddied the waters by forcing H+ and regular Heroics to share the same Looking for Group queue! I tried putting in the notes when I queue that I want a regular Heroic only to be invited by someone who apparently can’t read.
Not to mention the awkward moment of having to ask which dungeon and which type of heroic we are doing all the time. Then someone finds out that it is or isn’t H+ and drops from the group.
Seeing how many groups on my server trying to do H+ with absolutely zero ideas of how to do them was rather tragic. There was a huge learning curve in getting people to click the yellow sphere, not the disc. Then there was the fact they didn’t have the gear to do an H+. We had a tank want an H+ dungeon with 19k health!
My first H+ UP was rather revealing when the entire party was wiped out in the first pull because we didn’t know about how the Glaciate worked.
So yeah Blizzard, I’m not quite grasping how you can embrace H+ yet reject RDF. It seems very hypocritical to me… and fix the Looking for Group with a separate queue category for H+.
(Players don’t bother trying to respond to this or start bullying me. I realize this Forum is a troll-toxic sea of hate. I am just posting this and leaving. I’ll never read any comments. This is just my only way to communicate.)
Please explain your line of reasoning to me.
"Devs wanted to introduce a new difficulty/catchup mechanic, so why not implement a system that automates (removes) the necessity for group building"
They’re not related.
I don’t disagree here. They should’ve allowed people to list themselves specifically for Heroic+. However, come phase 3, I doubt there will be much of a difference. Why would anyone do regular Heroic when they can increase an already trivial challenge for far more gold, gear, better badges, etc?
I think the fact that regular heroics have fallen a bit in popularity just shows that they were indeed uninteresting. To me, it seems like Heroic+ is basically just doing what it was designed to do as per the “community pillars” article they wrote.
One of these things adds an optional new difficulty that makes old content a bit more relevant and provides an easier path for people wanting to gear up and raid. The other one effectively removes a few aspects of the game’s core experience from dungeon groups. Aspects that many people value greatly in the WoW experience.
Yeah, screw alts and new players who joined late.
Heroic+ will be as well once the runed orb market tanks, the only reason people are bothering is cause of the inflated emblem reward.
I’m not sure if I understand the implication here… Do you really mean to say that you think people should only have uninteresting content to play, just so people showing up late to the party have more people to play with?
Where exactly would you draw the line on that thinking? Isn’t it leaving the alts and new players in the dust when people move onto the new raiding content that’s even further out of the reach? And what about moving into a new expansion? There are plenty of people who are trying to level through Vanilla or TBC content… Should other people be held back because not 100.00% of the players are ready to move together?
Wrath Heroics are extremely undertuned and they offer almost nothing interesting in terms of gear or gold, and they’re even pretty bad for enchanting materials. How is it a bad thing to enrich that content with a new difficulty level so people who might not run 5-mans, might actually be playing more now?
Also, these 5-mans are a catchup mechanic. And it’s far more likely that even a fresh 80 will be able to get raid geared in Heroic+ than it is for a fresh 80 to find a group of people who want to run irrelevant raids. As time goes on and people get more geared, you’re going to see an extremely sharp dropoff in people running Phase 1 raids, except for those looking for achievements and mounts. But 5-mans are always relevant throughout the expansion.
I disagree. It just flat-out offers more rewards. If you tally up the gold, the gear, the materials, it’s simply more rewarding. And as time goes on, the relative difficulty will be less and less. If people are running them now, I see no reason why they won’t be running them in the future when they’re geared enough to faceroll them.
Once people just casually run Heroic+ dungeons for their dailies, it will truly be an easy track for fresh 80s to get raid-geared. Compare this to the situation with regular Heroics when Wrath launched. When everyone was in really bad gear, they actually gear-checked to make sure they had higher chances of success and lower chances of missing out on loot they needed. And now, it basically doesn’t matter who you bring to a regular heroic because BiS-geared players run them often, and they have more than enough gear to carry people in greens. This will eventually be the case with Heroic+ as well.
More like any people to play.
And how interesting is the same content with a silly modifier really?
Time’ll tell. So far Classic WotLK has played out in the exact same fashion WotLK OG did.
Normal dungeons are abandoned, heroics are abandoned outside of the daily.
At best heroic+ will replace the daily for the quest and overinflated bag of 3 extra tokens. And once you have the gear and runed orbs don’t sell, why even bother with this? It’s more profitable to just do a few dailies.
Not saying you’re wrong here, but like, even in naxx25 gear, mostly BiS, TR dungeons are a nightmare. Imo it’s better to just do your weekly naxx10 if you’re new or on an alt cause it’s easier and gives better/more gear.
Some people may find H+ interesting the first few times they run it. I doubt anyone will after that. Personally I find nothing interesting about them at all. YMMV
But let’s face it, if H+ didn’t drop the extra satchel they’d be dead. They really are that uninteresting.
But there isn’t much to be done about it if people just don’t want to… The problem that Heroic+ somewhat fixes is twofold:
- Fresh 80s don’t really have a decent pathway into raids. They have access to badge gear after they do enough dailies, but that takes unnecessarily long (and it’s wasteful to spend badges on gear that isn’t really itemized the way you want it). They have Trial of the Champion in Phase 3, but it alone doesn’t offer nearly enough gear to replace all of the relatively useless ilevel 200 gear from regular heroics. There are old raids, but generally speaking, no one in late Phase 2+ is going to want to run Naxx again…
- Geared 80s have no interesting 5-man content to do, arguably until Heroic ToC or the ICC 5-mans.
I mean… Look at Heroic/Hardmode raids. The fact that they aren’t just participation trophies (in most cases) makes them more fun. Regular Heroic mode is so severely undertuned that people were clearing it before they hit 80 on PTR.
Personally I actually find Heroic+ to be very refreshing.
Well like I pointed out, I foresee Heroic+ actually replacing Heroic as the go-to standard for 5-man content. And when that happens, fresh 80s will be showered in good gear that will actually help them catch up unlike Heroic, or the non-existent raid groups that they’re geared enough to run with.
Ultimately I see a situation where everyone wins at least a little bit. Geared players will get more rewards and more (albeit time-diminishing) challenge, and undergeared players will have an actual use for the gear that drops therein.
See above. If the goal is to offer a more permanent gear path for fresh 80s at the “cost” of some extra badges being dumped into the economy, the way the system is currently set up makes a lot of sense. Of course the very first iteration of it will be the most relatively difficult. But as time goes on and better gear becomes more accessible (for everyone, not just raiders), Heroic+ will become relatively easier and the people who really need the gear will probably be the main beneficiaries.
I don’t know about you, but as a DPS and a Healer, it’s way more fun for me. It nice to actually be able to use some cooldowns and press some buttons on a boss before it dies. And it’s far less boring as a healer since I can no longer get by with just refreshing Earth Shield and popping a few Riptides here and there.
I mean, yeah. And pretty much the same thing with Heroic or Hardmode raids. People would want to clear them for the achievements and for the fun of the initial challenge, but yes, harder content does indeed warrant more rewards.
I don’t see how this is an argument against Heroic+. 
Yeah, I get that. But for now I think as a personal thing from me, is that it’ll just be easier to get the naxx25 gear (since naxx10 now drops it). The only thing we can really do is just deal with it and see how it goes.
I wish anyone who sees this good luck on their next TR Gundrak
Yeah, I’d agree with that. And I think that’s probably by design. After all, even with massively buffed loot, Naxx is still becoming far less relevant as time goes on, and will probably be “dead” within the next few weeks as people start to have Ulduar on farm.
Yeah. I definitely do feel for people who are struggling at the moment because of the change. I really hope I’m right about it gradually being easier for less-geared players to run regular Heroic+ groups.
lmfao WHAT?! man you anti RDFers are super weird. the only “experience” you get is a lonely flight to the dungeon followed up by majority of the time complete silence the rest. OHHH you must mean the experience to form the group right? thats bout all you get out of it. But since youre on the topic of “ruining the games core experience” one might argue that not being able to find a dungeon group for quests between 10-58ish ruins part of the games core experience, UNLESS you want to wait HOURS or days.
stop being a weird cringe gatekeeper for literally no good viable reason. we get it. you love playing solo player wow when you level up alts. or you dont level up alts, play 1 guy, and are completely clueless about the state of the game. pick one.
speaking for myself, i would never use an rdf for heroic! dungeons at this point, lol. no way.
what nightmare? Do mechanics, get loot
I find it funny how often people like to spam the forums asking “So why did you remove dungeon finder again?”, only to plug their ears like petulant childrem when someone starts to explain themselves and then to put words into other peoples’ mouths.
Perhaps one of the biggest areas where you guys shoot yourselves in the feet is constantly showing the WoW team, on their very own platform, that the only “reasoning” you have in this disagreement is to try and lie, cheat and steal your way to winning arguments that you start with people that you’ve tried to drag down to your level, as if anyone is actually fooled by it. 
All the flavors in this universe and the single one you choose is to be a recreationally outraged sore loser. @ me when you’re interested in an actual conversation. 
The lack of rdf does not gatekeep you.
Tell me, how are you being prevented from making your own group? How are you being prevented from going into the dungeon?
Why would you want to introduce a tool like RDF that started the downfall of the retail line?
RDF destroyed the server community back in the days, I do not have any good memories of it.
Granted, they could put some of RDF’s QoL changes in, like insta port to the dungeon when the group is full. But without extensive rework to remove what made it bad (they’d need to do something about fake tanks/healers; implement a tool to force a certain group comp; remove cross server; unlimited ignore lists; overhauled vote to kick system and overhauled deserter debuff (I don’t want to get deserter if I’m stuck in a bad group and leave); remove goody bags), I am staunchly against RDF.
Classic Wrath has turned out to be a hot mess and isn’t very much like the original.
Meanwhile, WotLK OG did something about it and solved it.
Wut, it’s been there since day 1.
Naxx 10.
Saying that heroic+ is a pathway to raids when it’s harder than the raids boggles the mind.
Please don’t compare heroic+ with its dungeon wide nonsense to hard mode raids that have actual different mechanics depending on what you do.
We’ll see.
My money is on my take.
They weren’t excluding it because they were waiting for ICC. To my knowledge, it was intentionally being excluded, and intended to be excluded for all of Wrath. I 100% agree it should be in game, just wanted to clarify, comparing the deviation of Wrath with H+ to bring back RDF ‘early…’ there is no early, because Blizzard is allowing the community to believe they are simply NOT adding it. At all… period. Now, that doesn’t mean they won’t change their mind, but if they had plans to release it later into the expansion, I can see no benefit to with holding this information and allowing the community to believe it was never coming, literally causing riots, boycots and a huge portion of players to unsub over no RDF.
Can’t disagree with this. They should have their separate tabs. Finding normal heroics for most people this late into the game was already hard enough, now the player base willing to do dungeons is just even more spread out. Also, not many people bother to read notes, just an FYI.
Because it has nothing to do with wanting to or not wanting to deviate. They have already SIGNIFICANTLY deviated by Ilvl boosts in phase 2, Character boosts, dungeon nerfs, 240 player wintergraps and the list can go on and on.
This is the way of Classic. Either take the journey or play a different game.