As long as I have a 4+ ability ‘rotation’ its all good, lol
Trickster will be nerfed to the ground before it comes out. I hope everyone FoTMs Rogues xD
It is not specific to the rogue… Every class is bloated.
The trees don’t have options because there are metas that are superior. Just like these “Heroes” will be.
2 Likes
It’s always been this way. Since before TBC (the first expansion) was even released. It’s not now this is the problem. There’s no now it’s ALWAYS been this way.
But that’s human nature it’s not to do with the game it’s a people thing. There’s always going to be disagreement on what is good bad stupid genius etc etc.
You truly can’t please everyone at the same time.
Choice is an illusion. Always has been. Blizzard just won’t admit it.
Trickster will just not go online like this.
It’s badly designed.
1 Like
I’ve been very happy with the talent trees and abilities this expansion. The gameplay hasn’t felt this good in years, and the tier sets provide variety. These hero talents are a mistake. They are unwanted, unsolicited changes that are going to compound class and spec imbalances and unironically cause bloat.
2 Likes
These changes come about like all others on bliz’s end.
us: We want the old content to remain relevant meaning keep a few items and uniques from every dungeon still viable.
Bliz: Oh yes, we will add timewalking and make everything scale to your level. We can regurgitate old dungeons with no programming.
Us: We want harder level content. Meaning more upscaled dungeons and raids.
Blizzard: Oh yes, we will make hard, ultra hard, mythic 1-500. This requires no programming just a scaling formula.
Us: We want our abilities to be optional and able to choose our talents across each of our specs.
Blizzard: We will make the most complicated tree and still not make crossfunctional choice.
1 Like
That is my position as well.
In the early alpha of BFA the Azerite armor were a bunch of neat little passives which I didn’t mind because I thought it was cool.
The problem is that when you had Azerite powers that started to force talent choices which is where it went off the rails IMO.
Right now this looks like a one and done system and not an evergreen system that will be built upon as we progress into the next two expansions after war within.
I am in the wait and see boat on this one.
There is 0 indication that they are a 1 and done, they could easily add more to them or change them as the expansion goes on, like they did with a lot of talent trees in Dragonflight.
What really matters is that they change our gameplay in a meaningful way and they are just not a bunch of boring passives that don’t change your rotation, like most Azerite powers were.
Is also a way to add extra utility and defensives to specs that needs it, without having to redesign the class/spec tree.
At any given moment, you have access to ~10 abilities. Weapon swapping and stance swapping allow for some degree of changing abilities, but to my recollection from what classes I played most of them only have 10 buttons + maybe 1-2 extra ability buttons for class crap.
Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but the person I quoted said several games do this. I want to know what other MMOs they’re implying do this.
Every class really isn’t bloated, at least from my experiences playing a majority of them/all of them this expansion, minus maybe Warrior because it’s boring to me.
But let’s go back to this for a minute:
What other MMOs have executed this?
1 Like
The major one is ffxi.
Wow, did we find a player that doesn’t just think that number of abilities makes a spec bloated? It’s a miracle, it’s almost like bloat is mostly just a coverup for bad players, and most specs aren’t actually bloated.
Bloat is not the number of skills, it’s how they interact between each other. And people who just throw around bloat without actually thinking, or without any context, pretty much don’t know what they are talking about.
To some extent both can be bloat. Having so many damned abilities that your bars and available keybinds overflow has been an issue I’ve seen on a couple of specs, but not many.
Interaction bloat is definitely something they’ve pushed the boundary on a few times. Most recent and best example being Outlaw Rogue, where both Stealth and Vanish are treated as almost purely offensive cooldowns in nature if you play the “intended” way. Combine that with current tier set and how it affects Roll the Bones, Underhanded Upper Hand, Keep it Rolling, Loaded Dice… Like, yeah, it’s playable without intensely focusing on all of these interactions, but it’s becoming a problem for the spec. I also don’t see why Shadow Dance needed to be on the class tree and Outlaw needed to have any focus on Stealth itself, but I could go on a long tangent about Outlaw, so I’ll stop myself there.
It’s not a bad example of cross-classing/subclassing, even if it’s a bit of an unwieldy comparison due to some core differences in intended gameplay and how it evolved.
Also a game with some very solid examples of mechanical bloat, if I recall correctly.
1 Like
Don’t like it go back to wc2
Today I logged onto my Enh Shaman and I was swiftly reminded that the default UI sucks.
I want to cast my instants when I have 10 stacks not 5, but the UI splash art caps out after 5.
So instead I should look at my buff bar? As an Enh Shaman with everything else going on?
Yeah, I just wont play it.
That’s how I feel about the Warlock one. Cycle demon summons that I doubt the UI will track.
The others seem to just be on-screen visual spams couple with some variation of a DoT.
2 Likes
It sounds here like you understand what some of us are getting at when we say that the current class / talent system is badly designed; we’re talking about problems just like the ones you bring up here. I can produce examples from other classes if you like, I just don’t unless asked as it it takes a while to write the criticism up. 
(One of these days, I’ll get around to writing up a comprehensive one, or so I keep telling myself, but with Hero Talents doubling-down on the current paradigm, I’m not sure such a post would be worth the effort other than to return to it 4 - 6 years later when Blizzard revamps the entire system and say, “Ha, told you so!”) 
1 Like
I’ve only recently been getting into rogue and even I read Trickster’s talents and thought they really dropped the ball on it. Like… why have the talents mostly tied to Feint (for AoE applications of Fazed)? It’s such an odd choice to try to turn a defensive into an offensive, and anyone who understands even a little bit about real-time combat could tell it’s a bad idea.
4 Likes
I seriously have no idea where people are getting numbers like this for abilities.