HC server is Pay to Win. How is that Hardcore?

[Gulthrazda-bigglesworth]

@Corpseknife-mankrik

The only way it matters is if its challenging for everyone.

Lol, you’re making it that, for some reason. It is a solo challenge. Don’t cheat yourself and you’ll be fine.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

AH which is not a solo endeavor.

Never said it wasn’t. You, however as an individual have to take part in it for it to ruin your individual challenge.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

Likewise, you could stop caring about me caring.

I enjoy watching you attempt to reason with yourself why others cheating in their own challenge is hurting yours.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

I have reasons to care even if you won’t acknowledge them.

I acknowledged them though… You just don’t like how I do it.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

There are different degrees or levels to the difficulty.

Yes, there is. Pick the one you want to intereact with, and others will pick what they want to interact with.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

just stay in your lane.

Hey, we’re getting there.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

I haven’t said anything about how I feel,

You don’t have to say the words “I Feel” but sure, I did make an assumption because I get the feeling you’re getting a bit snippy that others disagree that others playing differently is… a problem. Again, another assumption. My apologies.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

I stated a simple truth

*opinion

@Corpseknife-mankrik

• not using the AH or trade is more hardcore than using it

I’ve already agreed with this, don’t know why you feel the need to say it again.

@Corpseknife-mankrik

Im getting a ton of grief for stating an obvious fact

*responses *opinion

@Corpseknife-mankrik

Enjoy that giggle cuz Im gonna have the last laugh.

Highly doubtful as the way you want it probably wont happen. I do intend to enjoy my giggling because I’m doing it as I type this.

**PS

I have no doubt you’ll respond, and you should. I however probably wont. We disagree and that is okay, you’re not changing my mind that you can still enjoy the experience you want despite others not playing that was as well.

So GL with your wants, I truly hope you get them. Take care.

[Gulthrazda-bigglesworth]

@Piptak-mankrik

first couple months with the clowns that just left my server

I think this would be a good idea and what I’m doing for the characters that I do the SSF characters on.

[Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

Yes, there is. Pick the one you want to intereact with, and others will pick what they want to interact with.

The point Corpse is making is that this is already arbitrary.

By your logic, people should be able to power level, boost, twink, literally buy a 60 boost, pay for resurrection, be able to cash shop buy raid gear and so forth, if that’s how people want to engage with the content, right?

I understand that this reduces your argument to a point of absurdity, but the point I’m making is that it’s obvious that players should not be able to engage however they want, because at a certain point it is self defeating to the point of the game.

So, if the rules are ultimately arbitrary, how do we decide on them?

In this case, Corpse and I are arguing from a position of precedent. The absolute boom that HC caused in the Classic community is due to the popularity of the addon that attempted to verify a community standard of content that was considered “Hardcore”. Therefore, if Blizzard is going to officially support Hardcore, they should honor the ruleset that the brought this to the fore in the first place.

You seem to be arguing from a position of subjective opinion, though. You have no more right to say that a person shouldn’t be able to buy a 60 boost or a resurrection than you can say they should allow auction house fully.

There is no basis from which you can claim, “This is appropriate for Hc and this is not.”, as from your standpoint, player freedom seems paramount to you.

You can’t hold the opinion that players should be able to engage however they want AND that there should be rules in any capacity, as these are mutually exclusive, you can only have one or the other.

You could say that players should have absolute freedom within a given set of rules, but then we are back at square one; how do you determine the rules?

[Piptak-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

Blizzard never said HC=1 life. They even said as much in the rules of engagement post.

If “real hardcore” is merely one life and nothing more, the official server wouldn’t be anymore hardcore than SSF or Ironman according to those that proclaim this, as it too has additional rules. Not as many as the others but additional rules nonetheless.
Why not accept that hardcore means something different for many players. Just play the one you like and move on. Official will just be a starting point for the version of hardcore you want to play, add rules or don’t, it’s your journey.

[Jwøwøwøwøwøw-tichondrius]

Curious who actually played on Bloodsail with addon ruleset and who is just a FOTM “tourist” raid-log GDKP, booster, wanting to buy their way to “HC” level 60 then quit and say there’s no content.

[Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Piptak-mankrik

Why not accept that hardcore means something different for many players. Just play the one you like and move on.

Because this is inconsistent. If I want to dungeon grind to 60, I do not have the option of doing so. If I want a high level to power level me I do not have the option of doing so. Blizzard is obviously partially copying the spirit and intent of the addon by some of the limitations they’ve added.

I would return a question; why would we accept a half-baked job when it so clearly has major problems and alters the efficient gameplay loop irrevocably?

In my opinion, either just make a crap shoot server where people can truly play unrestricted; opt in hardcore, paid for resurrects, 60 boosts, token, microtransaction raid gear, and let people go wild, OR, make a hardcore server that preserves the intent of the community that effectively produced its own game mode for its own fun.

Taking a half measure is only going to divide and piss off the fan base. As is quite evident by the community discussion around it at present.

[Piptak-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

I would return a question; why would we accept a half-baked job when it so clearly has major problems and alters the efficient gameplay loop irrevocably?

They’ve already decided their rules, whether or not we like them. If you really want to play your hardcore without any restrictions at all you’ll have to make adjustments maybe pick another server I suppose.
I’m leaning towards just playing SSF on Bloodsail, and reserving a couple characters on the official server to play that mode when the dust settles. It really depends on what occurs there, if it’s botting up I’m not going to bother.
Do what you gotta do, no?

[Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Piptak-mankrik

They’ve already decided their rules, whether or not we like them.

You aren’t wrong. However… When the announcement interview with Sarthe came out, the devs on the line made a point both that trade and AH would be available on the Hardcore Realm, AND that they were receptive to feedback and were open to making changes based on said community feedback.

Hence the thread. I would be remiss if I didn’t at least try, you know?

@Piptak-mankrik

I’m leaning towards just playing SSF on Bloodsail

Then I think this is a fair point to bring out to Blizzard. They are making a Hardcore server and some of the community that brought about Hardcore are considering not even playing on it. It just seems like a waste of time and effort to get everyone’s hopes up, only to be let down when they realize it is an entire different landscape than what Bloodsail had.

It isn’t what we had, but better. It is an entirely different thing.

[Piptak-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

Then I think this is a fair point to bring out to Blizzard.

Rest assured, I’d guess that I’m in the smallest minority on that count. Probably not a concern. And to be fair, I like the server since I’ve played there since 19.

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

It isn’t what we had, but better.

That’s entirely subjective.

[Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Piptak-mankrik

That’s entirely subjective.

I respectfully disagree. The limitations Blizzard implemented regarding level boosting and dungeon grinding were appropriate solutions to problems the addon was not fully capable of solving; verifying that open world groups were not being power leveled, and that people could not reset-farm dungeons to 60.

In this regard, Blizzard clearly produced a superior solution to these problems than was literally possible via the addon, and such was their intent. It was what we had, but better, however the non-inclusion of one key aspect that the addon addressed, trading, remaining untouched is a fly in the ointment of the project as a whole and its intent, transfiguring it into a different project entirely.

[Kannash-moon-guard]

Sorry for the delay and what is going to be a disappointing response, I haven’t been able to get onto my computer today and have plans for the weekend that will prevent me from doing so as well. I wanted to really get a proper multi quote response in but its tedious to do via mobile.

Couple that with more and more points being brought up and now it’s 30 posts past the initial question, I’ve decided to just state that we can agree to disagree.

The only point I’ll leave it on is that, to my understanding, the creators or moderators of the HC addon and defacto “heads” of this “community” were brought in for talks with Blizzard over the initial concept and set up of official servers. If they’re not up in arms, then this must be what they decided they like most or would be best for the majority? If that’s the case then perhaps your belief or understanding of why the HC community and ruleset was established might be skewed.

I could be wrong they were really involved, but even if they weren’t, as far as I know they’re still happily content to potentially not be updating the addon anymore, so take that as you will and feel free to inform me if that is incorrect.

[Moriath-aggramar]

No it shouldn’t, the rules suck, Ive thought so since the moment I read them.

I want to play 1 life WoW, nothing else. I don’t care about the addon, the addon community did not invent hardcore as a concept.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

Don’t cheat yourself and you’ll be fine.

If other people are cheating then I’m being cheated if they want to say their cheating and me not cheating are the same exact thing at the end of the day.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

Never said it wasn’t.

No you just directly compared solitaire to an MMORPG because of how much sense that makes.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

I enjoy watching you attempt to reason with yourself why others cheating in their own challenge is hurting yours.

Its not hurting my challenge. Its being told that we’re equals after they cheated and I didn’t.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

I acknowledged them though… You just don’t like how I do it.

Saying “just ignore the other people cheating” isn’t an acknowledgement, its a bad joke.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

Yes, there is. Pick the one you want to intereact with, and others will pick what they want to interact with.

Already said I was fine with that so long as we can say the guy who does it solo did it on a harder mode since that would be the case.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

I get the feeling you’re getting a bit snippy

I get snippy when others get snippy and tell me their opinions are facts and the facts are my opinions.

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

*responses

*semantics

@Gulthrazda-bigglesworth

I’ve already agreed with this, don’t know why you feel the need to say it again.

Context.

Its not being offered as an opinion and yet you still agree with it. /giggles. Can you explain how its not factual? I mean, if you’re going to respond that is, since you said you probably wouldn’t.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

In this case, Corpse and I are arguing from a position of precedent.

Its more than that (I know Blizz and this player base). Id also contend that the completely solo experience was heralded prior to the add on. Maybe the add on adopted it from there but when this stuff was first coming to the fore it was my understanding that hardcore meant as little interaction between players as humanly possible. When I tried it for myself, this was the case, although I must confess there were varying opinions on the matter in chat channels.

As you said, it feels half baked to implement some measures (1 dungeon, etc) but then keep the AH and player trading the same as any other server. Especially when you consider that any kind of “criminal element” would make use of those things.

Now, Ive expressed some doubts about gold farmers getting a foothold on an HC server but I have no doubt whatsoever if there is a means to make playing on a HC server “super efficient” aka way easier then it will be exploited to the detriment of everyone.

In other discussions Ive seen and been apart of, people are already conspiring towards that end. One example Ive seen is mailing expensive goods and gold to a “bank alt” so those things are not completely lost upon death and being available for a newly rolled character. There’s others but I dont feel like I should cover them here.

In my opinion, if you’re going to have HC servers then you might as well go fully prolific with the idea, which would at least include some kind of limits on trade and AH usage. Otherwise, with enough time, HC won’t be as HC.

[Piptak-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

The limitations Blizzard implemented regarding level boosting and dungeon grinding were appropriate solutions to problems the addon was not fully capable of solving; verifying that open world groups were not being power leveled, and that people could not reset-farm dungeons to 60

And some here disagree about the lockout/open world groups/power leveling.

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

Blizzard clearly produced a superior solution to these problems

Again I’ve seen differing opinions here as well.
I’m not going to get into whether these differing opinions are right or not, I’m not that concerned, but saying this,

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

It isn’t what we had, but better.

Is your opinion.
The statement is entirely subjective.

[Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Corpseknife-mankrik

One example Ive seen is mailing expensive goods and gold to a “bank alt” so those things are not completely lost upon death and being available for a newly rolled character.

Exactly this.

It has been scarcely mentioned that the fundamental gameplay loop of Hardcore as we know it will be completely different.

Right now we have: You start, you fight, work and try your best, and if you die, it begins again anew. I think this was popular because each character was sort of a unique adventurer that was exploring the world completely by their own grit and determination. I don’t think this necessitates SSF, just limitations to keep this loop intact.

What we will have on the official servers is: You start you character, then log out. Then you make your Bank alt and get them to SW. THEN you start leveling, sending any excess money, materials, recipes and BOEs to your bank. If your character dies, you use your bank alt to accelerate the new characters leveling to get back to where you were as quickly as possible. If you make it to 60, then you have an unbelievable ability to recover from deaths, and HC is effectively BOA.

If we’re going to go that route they may as well make add the guild vaults in and make them bound to your account instead of guild. Let’s just cut out the middle man and make what is inevitible more effecient, right?

@Piptak-mankrik

Is your opinion.
The statement is entirely subjective.

To clarify, what I’m saying is that if you’re looking at the changes from the perspective of why the restrictions existed on the addon, the limitations of the addon to enforce this behavior and the sacrifices necessary to do so, and the solutions that Blizzard produced to the exact same reasons why the addon restrictions existed, that Blizzard objectively solved those problems with fewer sacrifices and with fewer limitations to enforcement than the addon, which would make those solutions superior by definition from this perspective.

If what you are contending is that, from the jump, if I’m assuming a perspective like what I described at all, I’m assuming a subjective stance, that’s totally fine. I’m not trying to get lost in the weeds on that.

What I’m saying is that the perspective should be of greater relevance because it is both representative of the community in the rules we agreed to play under on Bloodsail, and because it is the stance Blizzard is taking in implementing these solutions.

I think it’s obvious that this perspective of what the problems and solutions should be implemented on Hardcore should have more weight than just any other “subjective opinion”. Someone’s subjective perspective could be that all mobs in the game should only be turtles. Should we give that equal consideration simply on the basis that it is also a subjective viewpoint?

[Piptak-mankrik]

Then you might have included this novelette.
The blanket statement that it’s better is your opinion. Hopefully that clears it up.

[Vanillataur-garrosh]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

It has been scarcely mentioned that the fundamental gameplay loop of Hardcore as we know it will be completely different.

For those that do this, yes, but not for you.
You still seem to forget that HC is a personal challenge.
You - and I - can still play Self Found (I do not like the Solo part as I love my professions) with every new character we make, but I do not see any harm in others doing it their way. They migth become wiser with time and tries

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

What we will have on the official servers is: You start you character, then log out. Then you make your Bank alt and get them to SW. THEN you start leveling, sending any excess money, materials, recipes and BOEs to your bank.

Please speak for yourself “We” are not going to do this - I am not, and I know more that won’t. so I amended your quote:

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

Some will start a character, then log out. Then make a Bank alt and get them to SW. THEN start leveling, sending any excess money, materials, recipes and BOEs to the bank.

There’s nothing preventing us from doing the HC challenge different ways,

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Charoom-bloodsail-buccaneers

What we will have on the official servers is:

Its worse than people can imagine at this point. I don’t know where forum posters get their info from but it doesn’t begin nor end with the forums for me. There are people right now theory crafting on how many people it would to take to come together and collude to essentially take over the server economy. Is it 20? 40? What are the chances Blizz actually polices HC servers?

When I see stuff like this, even if its a somewhat unlikely scenario, all I can think is that not everyone is looking to play HC for the sake of it. When that happens, well, you better enjoy the first 4-6 months because its not going to be the same after a certain date.

People can rationalize “free trade” to me all day - you’re going to get exactly what you wish for - trade is going to be free to do whatever the hell it wants. As usual.

Good luck with that.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

The idea or implication that “player trade and AH” is better for HC is just as subjective stance. Blizzard’s inclusion of it for HC does not validate or invalidate anyone’s opinion.