Doing what? Leveling a hunter over and over in the most boring quest lines imaginable?
just because you would play HC so timidly does not mean everyone else does 
yeesh, talk about telling on yourself
Very fair point, I wouldnāt contest it, though I donāt think it is mutually exclusive with the statement I made; I think they could both be true.
I totally agree. At no point have I advocated for the entire removal of any system, merely for the modification of existing systems to support the Hardcore ideal that was set forth by the community. They are 2/3rds the way there, too!
The HC addon fully disabled open world grouping, doing dungeons more than once, and trade and AH use. This wasnāt because the systems were intrinsically bad, but because they enabled game play that could be exploited to a degree that the community felt was contrary to the point of Hardcore in the first place. This is a major point because it shows the community valued an authentic hardcore run over even important social aspects of the game: Thatās how serious the community was about having a Hardcore run free of any egregious exploiting of in-game resources like power leveling or even dungeon grinding.
Blizzard announced an elegant solution for the first two: they would allow open world grouping but would artificially limit XP based on the levels of the party members, and would limit dungeon runs to 1 per day. This is perfect because it restores the social aspect of the game, while preserving the intent of the server: Everyone gets an authentic hardcore run.
All Iām asking is that they do the same with the 3rd item that they simply ignored in Trade/Mail/AH. I think they could EASILY create a similar solution that preserves the integrity of āHardcoreā on the server, while still allowing us to engage with those systems in some capacity.
Also very astute.
People will definitely be twinking both for MakāGora and leveling. Itās really impossible to say if these two input motivations for twinking will be less than, equal to, or more than what existed for PvP twinking in vanilla/ classic, but Iām unconvinced that it will not have an affect on the server.
This strikes me as more of an accusation toward me rather than an actual opinion on the behaviors of others. I prefer to be addressed directly if thatās the case, but to each their own.
I vividly remember the first time I ran into a twinkā¦
BGs had released a few months prior, and I queued up for a WSG with a 16 rogue. Running out the tunnel, I saw a level 10 rogue. Naturally, I start running at them to engage, thinking vaguely, āwhy are her weapons glowing green?.. And how does she have those engineering goggles at level 10?ā Then, I was hit by a sinister strike crit that killed me instantly.
I wasnt āinsanely jealous or covetousāā¦ But I also was certainly not like,
ā¦ I wanted to know what the hell just happened to me and how on earth a level 10 could 1-shot a level 16 of the same class. And I found the answer. And it didnāt feel great, because I realized that I was not going to win against guys like that, and that by taking up a spot on our team, I was taking that spot from someone who might be geared like that level 10.
I got into twinking after that because I wanted to 1 shot people for fun. At the time in 2005, I was too young to have a CC, and therefore couldnāt RMT, but I definitely would have if given the opportunity.
Now, almost what, 20 years later? I am totally against twinking, RMT, and I am outspoken against both because Iāve come to understand the long term erosion of fun and excitement every time it rears its head. RMT is cheating, simple as that, and games that allow/enable cheating are less fun generally than games that donāt. If you challenge that, Iām all ears.
Letās do a thought exercise to test that. When the server launches in the first few weeks before 60s become prevalent: If one player has a level 15, RMTs and twinks the character, allowing them to solo clear elite quests and keep all drops for themselves, does another level 15 that does not or cannot RMT have that same option?
Further, do they have the option to have the same amount of health as that twink, tripling or quadrupling their health pool and survivability?
No. They donāt. For that to be achievable without RMT, they would need to grind gold, which would require they play without those buffs while they are gearing. The option to just have that stuff and go level is not an option.
So having 2k health at 19 vs 6-700 truly has no impact on your survivability? Fullstop?
Okay, you two:
So far you guys have given me genuine articulate responses and seem to be willing to actually have a conversation about this, which I really appreciate. Maybe you could help me understand something on your side that just feels wildly inconsistent to me, cuz at the moment nothing in this thread has satisfied my curiosityā¦
So you guys seem to feel that the game should have as few limitations on it as possible in comparison to any other Classic server. You seem to accept permadeath as a qualifying necessary changeā¦
But how do you guys feel about the XP limitations based on the levels in your group to prevent powerleveling, and dungeons being locked 1 per day? These are rules that limit options for game play that are currently in place, and while everyone seems to take the āNo rules no changesā attitude toward the topic of trade and AH, it seems this crowd just accepts these other limitations in stride.
Why? Blizzard added these restrictions out of deference for what the Hardcore community has already created, and everyone seems to be cool with that. But when I express the desire to extend that to the rest of what the Hardcore community had created in terms of a ruleset, and point out the negative outcomes that could be associated, only this topic seems to cause people to dig their heels in.
Any thoughts on why that might be? No sarcasm, Iām actually perplexed here lol
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No, no it isnāt. Your game of solitaire played properly is only undermined if you allow yourself to be upset that OTHERS are cheating at solitaire, a game played solo.
My advise is stop caring so much about what others are doing.
Explain to me what it takes away from you? What did this other person do to take away your individual challenge by not also doing it the way you see fit?
Thank you I will.
Havenāt avoided anything. You just disagree with me, which is absolutely fine, you do you my guy. However you repeating how much it upsets you that others are cheating in their individual challenge wont change my mind on that my, individual challenge of leveling on HC, wont be tarnished because others cheated themselves out of an experience they may or may not have claimed to want.
It is about something, I donāt know what, but it is about something. It isnāt this, but it is something. Something deep down and repressed on why there is this massive need for others to follow the exact same rules you do in this individual challenge. Good luck with that though.
Yeah, they only lying to themselves and if others believe it, oh well. World keep on spinning and the world of Warcraft will keep on finding new islands to pop up with ancient civilizations that have seen all of the events back to Wc1, so its all good.
Yes? Is that what you been after this entire time? Yeah my guy, it is harder. I just donāt care that others donāt do it. Even if they lie about doing it.
Well you might have not gotten answers because I think youāre misunderstanding mine and possibly otherās point of view and I, and maybe them, assumed it was a rhetorical question.
Yes, of course doing the challenge with out assistance is harder. I donāt think any sane person would disagree.
The difference between you and I, is I donāt care if someone else is cheating, in a leveling challenge, on WoW. It doesnāt change my experience or enjoyment.
Tl:dr
Yes, youāre right. It is harder to do it alone.
You do it alone and you are far more hardcore.
None of this matters.
I donāt care that someone else cheats in a solo challenge, even if they lie about it to others.
Yeah, I genuinely wish you good luck with that. Nothing really more to say here, just like with Corpse here weāre talking in circles. I donāt think blizzard is going to make another/add rules that can be self imposed. Especially in my view point from having conversations about the subject out side these forums there was a massive cheating problem with in the HC community and Iād wager very little actually want those rules since they were unable to follow them.
Again, Gl with that.
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Im not asking whether or not it matters to you though. Im asking how is it all HC playstyles are somehow equal when that can be proven to be false.
Id ask how that can be true since its wrong and you didnt elaborate but Im not looking to get into a debate about why youāre wrong so Ill just be content with getting an answer, no matter how incorrect.
Im talking objectively though seeing as we can take two different approaches and compare them and accurately determine who took the easier approach and who took the harder one.
Since we can make that determination I dont see the big deal in making it yet it appears to be a big deal for some.
Well, one poster did say its subjective so if youāre looking for the subjective opinion, here you go. In other news, ignorance is bliss.
Sorry, I did not read all of your wall of text, but I see you posed some questions in the end. I think you pose these questions partly as trap questions, but Iām taking the bait.
as for this:
Why? Blizzard added these restrictions out of deference for what the Hardcore community has already created
No, they actually did not. They did it to make players level in the open wolrd. If they had listened to addon-users it would have been one of each dungeon, period.
Blizz says:
One of the most important aspects of the WoW Classic Hardcore realms is engaging in adventures in the outside world with other players. Creating random and serendipitous interactions is a core aspect of the original release of World of Warcraft, and spending most of your leveling time in dungeons is counter in spirit to what Hardcore is about. We do recognize that there may be a desire to run a dungeon while leveling multiple times, such as to finish a quest or get an important piece of loot. As a result, weāve added a 24-hour timer to almost all dungeons for players until they hit level 60.
And I do not scream and shout about changes to Dungeons simply because:
- Iām not going to use them
- I think these restrictions are fine. I never thought that powerlevelling or even worse boosting through dungeons should be a thing, and I hope these restrictions will be part of the next seasonal as well. Dungeons are for me a spice, not the meat, of WoW.
I also applaud the anti-PvP, leashing, not being marked for PvP on Quest completion and all other anti griefing measures on the official HC servers. This did not come from the addon, but was implemented to prevent griefing, which would make levelling not fun.
The buff/debuff limit ā¦ hmm I think maybe this was an unnecessary change, but again I wonāt use it, so thatās not the hill where Iām going to fight.
Bubble-Hearth no more - As I play a Paladin more often than not, I do not specially like this change, but I can see the rationale behind this.
Likewise the Makāgora was invented for those who love PvP. I wonāt use it, but I like the idea behind it.
The answer is in short that Blizz did not set out to copy the HC-addon. They set out to create HC servers where all could have fun, not only those willing to accept any and all addon rules.
Lol right on
Yes it is. Hypothetically speaking if I can buy a boosted toon and bypass all the challenges that undermines the efforts of the person or persons who took the challenge since it doesnāt matter one way or the other. The only way it matters is if its challenging for everyone.
The thing that gave rise to this convo was over unlimited player trading and access to the AH which is not a solo endeavor. You need people to trade with and sell things on the AH which youāre not doing by yourself. Bad analogy is bad.
Likewise, you could stop caring about me caring. I have reasons to care even if you wonāt acknowledge them.
I did explain it. There are different degrees or levels to the difficulty. For example, accepting free gold from a friend and twinking myself out through trade or the AH. Im fine if you want to do it that way but I dont want to be confused with you. Im not really asking for all that much - just stay in your lane.
I havenāt said anything about how I feel, thatās your two bit hack analysis of what you think is transpiring here. I stated a simple truth - not using the AH or trade is more hardcore than using it - and Im getting a ton of grief for stating an obvious fact from people who think their subjective stances somehow negate the differences between the two.
Enjoy that giggle cuz Im gonna have the last laugh.
HC cannot be false if played on a HC server.
HC means ONE LIFE not more, not less.
All that reach level 60 on the official HC servers have never died, ergo they have levelled hardcore, some have made it harder for themselves via self imposed challenges. This might make it more difficult, but not more HARDCORE. You cannot BE more or most Hardcore. You either are (you never died) or you arenāt (you died on your journey).
You are confusing difficulty with degrees of Hardcore.
To my answer: NO you say:
I elaborated in an earlier answer, and was asked for a simple yes or no. You now have it both ways, but since your attention span seems to be very short, I will repeat:
First off, I appreciate your reply.
As far as the above, I think this is obviously not the case. Blizzard would not have created HC in the first place if it were not for the addon community. I think you are glossing over the āwhat hardcore is all aboutā bit. The addon would have limited dungeons in a similar way to how Blizzard would have, but there wasnāt really an efficient way to limit time between dungeon runs, how many times the dungeon was run and with which party membersā¦ It just created a nightmare in terms of verification, so a single dungeon ID with a full HC team was determined to be the best option available.
Could you help me understand why powerleveling or boosting is bad and unworthy as an option for someone to play the way they want, but twinking and allowing RMT is?(mind you, Iām not accusing you of supporting RMT directly, Iām merely saying that by supporting unrestricted AH, you are tacitly supporting RMT as it exists today, and I find your opinion on boosting/PLing vs. Twinking/RMT inconsistent in their motivations.)
I only partially agree here. It is obvious that Blizzard wants to financially capitolize on the hype around a player developed-and-led game mode. They honored the majority of the rules of the addon, and, again; we would not have this game mode at all if it werenāt for the hard work of the addon developers and the community at large.
You seem to think that they likeā¦ Had a plan to release HC all along and had their complete own vision of what that was, and that just appears to be flagrantly and entirely false. This was spurred by independent user behavior that developed into a robust community since before SoM.
Yep, the addon is easily cheated. Bloodsail has been a much nicer place to play since the HC tourists and the cheats have tapered off. The people Iāve been encountering the last couple weeks are much nicer, and a lot more community like than those clowns.
Really liking the atmosphere and I have to wonder if I even want to play on official for the first couple months with the clowns that just left my server. 
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Yes I actually think this. You are not unique, you are not the first HC players, you are only more hyped. HC challenges have existed before WoW, and all during WoWās lifespan people have been making up HC challenges with more or less restrictive rules. That it came NOW is probably mostly due to all the streamers jumping the HC boat. and their need to capitalize HC servers.
Do I still need to remind yo of the name of the buff on the SoM servers? Soul of Iron? Donāt you think you have forgotten the IronMan challenge in all this? It was maybe as big as HC addon in the beginning, they only had the bad luck of living in a time where streamers (content creators) did not have the massive influence on the player base that they have today.
Maybe now that we get access to the API the IronMan Challenge will officially return to Classic as well.
so much wall of text
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Sorry, I try to keep it short 
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Hardcore strictly implies difficulty so I think the degrees are relevant for the reasons I and others have already stated - if youāre not careful you can create a HC environment where not dying isnt all that difficult which kind of defeats the purpose of HC.
This is the reason why I would hope for limitations on player trade and the AH and I donāt see why a real HC aficionado would have a big deal with that.
No is the wrong answer. If there are different levels or degrees of challenge and I take the harder path then I did something you didnāt and it would be okay for me or someone else to point that out seeing as there is a world of difference between grouping and trading and buying/selling on the AH and going completely solo to the nth degree.
Making it to 60 on any HC server would be an admirable accomplishment regardless of which way you went but the guy or gal who did it completely solo would get more admiration from me. You obviously feel differently and you are welcome to it but there is nothing suggesting I need to change my mind or Im incorrect in my way of thinking.
My brotherā¦ I understand you are likely the biggest advocate and most staunch supporter of IronMan, but I would be remiss if I didnāt point outā¦ Soul of Iron was also brought about by the Hardcore addon folks at the time. The HC community was small, but players in the streamer space made as much noise as they could, and SoI was added to SoM fairly late on. Unfortunately, this wasnāt enough for the community, and the XP buff in SoM kind of killed the vibe compared to Era.
Also, have to totally disagree with your thought that Blizzard had any plans for HC before Bloodsail exploded. The Ironman challenge had existed since what? 2013 or 2014 probably by the time I heard of it. I gave it a try, but in my opinion, how the challenge was juxtaposed against how retail functions just made it a dud for me, and from a community prospective, it never gained enough steam to even warrant Blizzards attention.
Hardcore is a product of the Post-2019 Classic WoW boom and a disillusionment of players that āNo changesā was not enough to recreate the 2004 experience. The game had to be approached from the angle of a DnD-like RPG perspective, which incidentally fit like a glove with what Hardcore would come to be.
There is simply no evidence to support that any and everything that we are getting in terms of official Hardcore support is not coming directly from this community. The existence of any other community related to Permadeath mechanics seems to have literally never moved the needle on official support. Only the addon community accomplished that.
I know I know, my brain is noisy and wordy and annoying. Believe meā¦ I KNOW. 
ā¦ Be nice to me!! Lol
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one life.
There IS no degree of HardCore, you are, or you are not. The rest are personal challenges.
I actually feel a bit pissed by this, because you are insinuating that all the people that played HC before the addon were not true HC afficionados. well if this is how you think and feel, I am finished discussing with you.
The challenge went live in early 2012, and I learned about it on Blizzards official site.
I cba to find it, as I am leaving this discussion.
EDIT: And I foud it anyway Here you go: https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/till-death-do-you-part-3659712
You are all so full of yourself anfd your addon, that you think the whole world hinges upon it. I am still happy that Blizz has seen reason and make the official HC servers a homne for all wanting to try out the One life way of playing - with or without additional challenges.
HC in this context means the characters first death is permanent. That doesnāt also mean that every way to play HC is equal. We have the brains and the observational skills to tell the difference. Donāt know what else to tell you.
They might not have been if this discussion is any indication so get as salty as you like, even though that wasnāt my intent.
One might say the same thing of grifters trying to impact the community that drove for this server in the first place.
If people are just going to act like a flock of seagulls and parrot this point over and over, I am going to have to ask you to justify this with some sort of source or basis for this assertion.
Blizzard never said HC=1 life. They even said as much in the rules of engagement post.
The HC community and discord never said this, as everyone playing in those communities bought into the addon, which has a lot more rules than just permadeath.
The direct definition of Hardcore, does not mention this, nor do any definitions that apply strictly to gaming. The first mention of Hardcore in gaming literally made the game harder, permadeath became associated later.
So. Either quit saying this as if it were a magic bullet of an argument, or justify why you are saying this. Iām fine if Iām wrong, but itās frankly getting annoying how often this is being baldly asserted.