Has Sylvanas betrayed the Horde yet?

[Treng-emerald-dream]

Yet so many people disagree with you.

That’s because they let bias for Sylvanas paint how they intake information.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken#Nature_of_undeath

[Deathisfinal-gnomeregan (Deathisfinal)]

I’ve posted a canon lore article that state that,

“She needs healin’. An’ that’s what priests do. She made it clear that all must heal her or all will perish.”

“The spirits cry out,” Hamuul was saying. “They died in an effort to protect the land, and now only death inhabits that place. Death and pain. We must not fail our Earth Mother. We must re-create the Cenarion Hold.”

“Nae, they’re not. They’re pokin’ and proddin’, and Azeroth doesn’t like it. She needs tae heal—or she’s goin’ tae die.”

de·stroy

Dictionary result for destroy

/dəˈstroi/

verb

verb: destroy ; 3rd person present: destroys ; past tense: destroyed ; past participle: destroyed ; gerund or present participle: destroying

1. put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.

You’re wrong.

I need you to really slowwwwww down and think about your response and what you’re responding to, I really don’t feel like posting the strawman video. I haven’t said that Azeroth isn’t dying, so please stop posting references that says as such.

That is not my argument.

My argument is “You said that Sylvanas is trying to destroy Azeroth” which you have yet to provide and evidence for. At worst Sylvanas is trying to mine Azerite despite Magni’s concern, which is a far cry from Sylvanas is trying to destroy Azeroth.

[Bronnix-bleeding-hollow (Bronnix)]

After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave. [31]

Not slavery. You have a choice and we know for a fact more choices other than servitude and death exist. Many undead have gone their own paths.

[Dotzy-kargath]

No it doesn’t.

Undead are naturally mindless and uncontrolled it takes magic to return control to them. Being feral does not mean they are slaves or mind controled.

However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.[31]

That is about raising. What about reanimation? Because they seem to be distinctly different. If reanimation was the same as raising Sylvanas wouldn’t need Valkyr to get more Forsaken.

[Treng-emerald-dream]

My argument is “You said that Sylvanas is trying to destroy Azeroth”

This pedantic argument was already thoroughly defeated.

de·stroy

Dictionary result for destroy

/dəˈstroi/

verb

verb: destroy ; 3rd person present: destroys ; past tense: destroyed ; past participle: destroyed ; gerund or present participle: destroying

1. put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.

^ This is exactly what she’s doing. But just to double down, let’s look up another definition.

kill1

Dictionary result for kill

/kil/

verb

verb: kill ; 3rd person present: kills ; past tense: killed ; past participle: killed ; gerund or present participle: killing

cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing).

That is about raising. What about reanimation? Because they seem to be distinctly different. If reanimation was the same as raising Sylvanas wouldn’t need Valkyr to get more Forsaken.

I understand why you might think that.

Sylvanas has always been able to reanimate the very recently deceased, even in Warcraft 3 with Black Arrow, which required her to kill the figure and only reanimated them sometimes. This sets up the dynamic that she requires a soul to not have moved on for her to reanimate them.

She needs Valkyr because Valkyr can move to the afterlife and bring souls back to reanimate them.

[Dotzy-kargath]

Sylvanas has always been able to reanimate the very recently deceased, even in Warcraft 3 with Black Arrow, which required her to kill the figure and only reanimated them sometimes. This sets up the dynamic that she requires a soul to not have moved on for her to reanimate them.

Which, as I’ve said before, is not at all different than a DK using Army of the Dead. Do you think DKs are betraying the Horde when they use AotD and catch a few Horde soldiers in their cast? Or do you only care when Sylvanas does it because she’s a leader? Like, would you care if Nazgrim came back to the Horde and in trying to win a fight against the Alliance he used a greater AotD which reanimated Horde soldiers?

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

No, she was just going to use it all for good PR even though she thought the meeting was a bad idea in the first place, which, SURPRISE it was!

No it wasn’t, it was a great idea to try making peace between humans and forsaken, to learn to accept them. The only bad idea was agreeing to let Calia come.

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

Do you think DKs are betraying the Horde when they use AotD and catch a few Horde soldiers in their cast?

Yes.

But can you cite them ever doing it? Cause if you can’t, it’s irrelevant.

[Murphio-moon-guard (Murphio)]

Okay.
I don’t care what you think.
Canon material says that you’re wrong.

Canon material says you’re wrong.
The raid is Battle for Dazar’alor, not Battle for the right to who kills Azeroth first.

to let us know “oh crap, we’re being betrayed.”

idk why they show it to us.
Perhaps you’re right, and Sylvanas is killing and raising Horde soldiers.
Does that make her evil?
IMO, probably not.

Your bias is monumental.

I acknowledge that I do have bias, but it’s not likely that bad.
Just because I don’t think some actions are evil because it’s not real doesn’t make me bad.

“All will serve me.”

Yup.
That’s a thing she says.
And?

It’s 100% relevant, and you’re disregarding it because it destroys your image of Sylvanas.

IDC about Sylvanas, I care about accuracy.
This is why in the past I’ve stated I don’t even like talking about this, because it feels like what you say, that I’m defending Sylvanas. My narrative interpretation tells me otherwise, and says that it makes more sense that Sylvanas is not evil and wont be fighting Horde directly anytime soon, because of Vol’jin.

Maybe that will change when Blizzard shows complete incompetence in writing a story, but despite their failures I don’t think they’ve done so yet.

@Treng’s link to supposedly Sylvanas planning to kill the desolate coucil
That would make sense if that’s what she said before anything even happened, this is after and the context has changed. Menethil’s presence for all intents and purposes corrupted them in her mind, probably thought she was propagandizing Alliance sentiment, which is where this comes from.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

My argument is “You said that Sylvanas is trying to destroy Azeroth”

This pedantic argument was already thoroughly defeated.

To be fair, your quotes prove that Sylvanas is wilfully doing something that will probably destroy azeroth, which isn’t quite the same thing as directly “trying” to destroy it.

The planet’s destruction isn’t actually her goal, its just a foreseeable side effect of the thing that is actually her goal. I think thats where your disagreement with deathisfinal is coming from.

[Bronnix-bleeding-hollow (Bronnix)]

She needs Valkyr because Valkyr can move to the afterlife and bring souls back to reanimate them.

She has created undead before without Valks they were creating abominations for years abominations have many souls in them.

Valks are needed cause they can raise large numbers of undead quickly where the few necromancers in the forsaken are too slow.

Yes.

But can you cite them ever doing it? Cause if you can’t, it’s irrelevant.

Legion. They raise lots of undead even ghouls and lesser undead at the Broken Shore. Take a guess where those bodies came from.

[Dotzy-kargath]

Any DK who used AotD during BfL or any skirmish between the factions? We don’t have any DK leaders on the Horde so ofc I was asking a hypothetical.

The only bad idea was agreeing to let Calia come.

Well, of course. Stupidity on Anduin’s part. He knows who killed Sylvanas and the Forsaken, he knows who Calia is, he should have known it was an awful idea.

[Deathisfinal-gnomeregan (Deathisfinal)]

de·stroy

Dictionary result for destroy

/dəˈstroi/

verb

verb: destroy ; 3rd person present: destroys ; past tense: destroyed ; past participle: destroyed ; gerund or present participle: destroying

1. put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.

^ This is exactly what she’s doing. But just to double down, let’s look up another definition.

kill1

Dictionary result for kill

/kil/

verb

verb: kill ; 3rd person present: kills ; past tense: killed ; past participle: killed ; gerund or present participle: killing

cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing).

Once you’re ready to talk about and provide proof that Sylvanas is trying to “trying to destroy the world” opposed to trying to mine Azerite then holla at me, I’ll be here waiting.

I despise real world examples but here goes nothing:

I’m digging in my back yard looking for fossils, but the neighbor is telling me that I’m harming the earth. I’m I A. Trying to collect fossils or B. Trying to harm the earth?

I can’t make it anymore simple than that, sorry.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

If by “fossils” you mean “fossil fuels” then that is indeed an ongoing issue in the real world right now!

But even then I wouldn’t accuse the oil-drilling and gas-guzzling companies of “trying to destroy the world”, they’re simply doing something where damaging the planet is a side effect that they deny/don’t believe in.

EDIT: holy crap is blizzard doing an environmentalism metaphor right now? Is that what the whole Azerite thing is about? Is captain azeroth going to show up and tell me “the power is yours!”?

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

She doesn’t need evidence, she’s the Warcheif, a decision maker, in a time where she had short time to make a decision.

Well it was the WRONG decision to make. She only HAD to kill Calia, if anyone. Her own people shouldn’t have had to suffer for the actions of someone out of their control.

That’s not what I’m referring to. Perhaps a better way to put it is “She has little problem with their services as a governing force.”

Them I’ll ask again, why did she murder them?

Maeiv is a good example.

Maiev is STILL a traitor, and that plot was completely ignored. She KILLED other Night Elves and even made an attempt on Malfurion’s life, she needs to answer for it. It doesn’t matter what authroity you have, it’s not an excuse for slaughtering innocents, not in the real world, not in the game world.

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

The raid is Battle for Dazar’alor, not Battle for the right to who kills Azeroth first.

THIS is a goal post moval.

Short term vs long term.

idk why they show it to us.

Because by Word of God Sylvanas is evil. They even announced that Sylvanas was going to be replaced at the Blizzcon QnA.

Yup.
That’s a thing she says.
And?

All includes everyone.

My narrative interpretation tells me otherwise, and says that it makes more sense that Sylvanas is not evil and wont be fighting Horde directly anytime soon, because of Vol’jin.

They literally wrote a book setting up Sylvanas lying to the Horde, betraying the Forsaken, removing the Forsaken’s rights to history, and heavily discouraging using their birth names, as well as intentionally mining Azeroth with the full knowledge that the act will kill the planet and you think it’s irrelevant?

Before the Storm is a mountain of evidence supporting what Word of God stated at Blizzcon:

Sylvanas’s plans are evil. Her War Campaign is purely about destruction.

To be fair, your quotes prove that Sylvanas is wilfully doing something that will probably destroy azeroth, which isn’t quite the same thing as directly “trying” to destroy it.

Magni says it will destroy Azeroth. She lies to Magni and sends him on his way, then tells the Tauren she’s doing it anyway.

The planet’s destruction isn’t actually her goal, its just a foreseeable side effect of the thing that is actually her goal.

It’s one of her goals, since she’s doing it.

She has created undead before without Valks they were creating abominations for years abominations have many souls in them.

She’s created abominations, huh?

When?

Valks are needed cause they can raise large numbers of undead quickly where the few necromancers in the forsaken are too slow.

They’re also needed because they can cross the barrier and Sylvanas cannot.

They raise lots of undead even ghouls and lesser undead at the Broken Shore.

They used a version Blight. Which is rooted upon the Plague, which also made undead when it killed people.

Any DK who used AotD during BfL or any skirmish between the factions?

The player isn’t setting story precedent. There may not have even been a horde death knight at battle for lordaeron.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

Well, of course. Stupidity on Anduin’s part. He knows who killed Sylvanas and the Forsaken, he knows who Calia is, he should have known it was an awful idea.

Well there you have it! We agree on something. gg.

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

Once you’re ready to talk about and provide proof that Sylvanas is trying to “trying to destroy the world” opposed to trying to mine Azerite then holla at me, I’ll be here waiting.

I despise real world examples but here goes nothing:

I’m digging in my back yard looking for fossils, but the neighbor is telling me that I’m harming the earth. I’m I A. Trying to collect fossils or B. Trying to harm the earth?

I can’t make it anymore simple than that, sorry.

Your harming the earth is not you acting as leader of a world power, with full knowledge that what you’re doing will end with the death of every living being on the planet.

[Sarthiria-wyrmrest-accord]

The player isn’t setting story precedent. There may not have even been a horde death knight at battle for lordaeron.

Just… wow. The whole Battle of Lordaeron would have seen at least one of every class, it was a major event after all and Forsaken death knights -do exist-.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

It’s one of her goals, since she’s doing it.

Saurfang knew that by letting Anduin live in hopes that Anduin would kill Sylvanas it would also lead to the deaths of any loyal horde soldiers Anduin killed on the way.

By your logic, his goal was to stop Sylvanas, but his goal is also to kill loyal horde soldiers, since he’s doing it.